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good afternoon good morning good evening

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wherever you may be Across the Nation

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around the world I'm your host Leah

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Prime and this is the invisible night

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school thank you so much for joining us

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this evening at our special time of six

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o'clock whether you're with us live or

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catching us on a replay we're very glad

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you're here the invisible night school

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is a small Consortium of lay researchers

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and Scholars exploring all manner of the

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numinous ufology Paranormal acai all

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that good stuff you can find us at the

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invisiblenightschool.com go ahead and

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like share and subscribe to our channel

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here on YouTube or join our Discord

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which is linked Below in the show

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description

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tonight we're welcoming Brian centers a

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guest I'm personally excited to have on

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the show Brian is a scholar and a poet

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based in Montreal Canada and teaches in

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the English Department of Dawson College

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also in the show's description you can

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find a link to Brian's Skunk Works blog

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and links to his long-form interviews

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with Luis caitano

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so without any further delay I'd like to

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welcome this evening's co-hosts

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the brilliant Campbell the inimitable

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Luis our resident dubious Layman Nick

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and of course the man of the hour Brian

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gentlemen thank you so much for joining

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tonight it's really wonderful to have

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yeah thanks so much for joining us Brian

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uh we're really looking forward to this

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convo and I want to just uh refer to

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everyone to the past two interviews that

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you did on Louise's Channel because

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those were so excellent I'm hoping we

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can touch on a few of those subjects

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tonight yeah the the question I kind of

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had prepared for this involves your

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first one um you described the UFO myth

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as a collective dream that expresses the

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anxieties and aspirations of our

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technological Society I believe you came

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to this conclusion in the 90s yeah this

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is the the period of you know the

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X-Files the Human Genome Project was

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going on things like that I've lately

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I've noticed the UFO myth kind of taking

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a more nebulous or mystical quality to

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it uh referred to as the phenomena and

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it Incorporated

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um Cryptids and poltergeists and things

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like that do you think that that that

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change also reflects the societal change

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um so so like in a nutshell why did we

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see nuts and bolts saucers in genetic

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experience in the 90s but now we see

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interdimensional Poltergeist like that's

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more positive and that's a very good

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question

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um you know I think the for the most

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part uh it's still the case that a lot

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of the UFO especially at the level of

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the sort of public discourse right and

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the level that it occupies us science

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fictionally in the in the journalism and

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such in the UAP reports coming out of

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the government

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um it's still very much sort of nuts and

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bolts are these rules are these

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spaceships there's still very much a

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technological interpretation of them in

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that regard now this this uh sort of

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Swing towards what's been called the

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sort of unified field Theory yeah of the

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the Paranormal is that's an interesting

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new development and I'm not too sure how

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to really segue that in to my earliest

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or my my earlier

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um my intuitions sure

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that's a very good question I I really

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hadn't given much thought to that I mean

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I've noticed this

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um

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but it is very recent it's not it's true

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in the past five years or so isn't it

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you know yeah I mean they were there

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were hints of it before with valet and

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stuff to kind of um the folklore aspect

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or the um essentially I see is like the

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Descartes demon version of uthology well

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you know actually if you go right back

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to the beginning of the phenomenon in in

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the late 40s and even before right

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because there were stories of Illusions

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visiting us in the 1930s right in the

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sort of new age culture of the West

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Coast and there

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um even in the earliest

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um

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uh interpretations coming out of damsky

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and Company

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um coming out of that sort of nascent

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New Age culture yeah the flying saucers

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were looked at as etheric right

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belonging to different higher vibrations

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as not being nuts and bolts and so on so

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there you've already got the sort of

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nascent Intuition or the nascent

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interpretation of them as uh sort of

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something spiritual for lack of a better

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um

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but that is you know that's a funny

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thing I tend not to touch on that too

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much

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because that wasn't as compelling to me

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in a way nor says compelling to me now

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right

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um but that's just my own

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diversity more than anything

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um yeah so what what's what's your take

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on that you mentioned the Descartes

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demon

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well just kind of kind of the

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um the the entity or the intelligence

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that's outside of our reality kind of

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messing with us even though that's kind

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of like well I see qualified version of

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uh yeah you know that that that is

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interesting because you see I mean you

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read some people are sort of trying to

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weave in the guy hypothesis uh trying to

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weave in of course the the simulation

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hypothesis now that the UFOs are maybe

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not just glitches but they're also sort

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of intrusions by

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you know the uh the Game Keeper as it

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were or the dungeon master or whatever

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whatever's in charge

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um

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yeah that again I'm not that doesn't

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really do it for me

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I'm mainly in part because I'm I'm very

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skeptical of the simulation hypothesis

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for a number of reasons

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um

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but maybe hey there's a whole new

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territory to be to be over there

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that's a door to open yeah thanks thanks

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um Brian um you know I'm really happy to

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have you here and you're a professional

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academic and I realized we haven't uh

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sort of allowed the uh

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the community to be aware of your exact

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qualifications so there's one of you

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people just give us a quick rundown of

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your expertise and then maybe I'll ask

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you a follow-up question after that sure

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qualifications is anybody qualified in

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this field

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um some more than others some more than

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others well yeah you can make the case

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eh

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my undergraduate studies were in

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philosophy about a four-year

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honors degree in philosophy I focused on

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wittenstein's private language argument

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but with much more interest in

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Continental philosophy

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particularly existentialism at the time

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then because I was a poet before I went

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to study philosophy I wanted to sort of

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give more times in life poetry my

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writing so I came to Montreal where I

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did it be in English

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uh the creative writing option at

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Concordia University is very interesting

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because you do as much academic work as

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you do creative work and the thesis in

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my in my case was a pseudo-anthology

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of a bunch of Works which tried to work

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on the synthesis between poetry and

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philosophy which is a concern that goes

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back to the German Romantics 200 years

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ago uh also because I was coming from

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philosophy to English I had to do an

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extra year of undergraduate courses in

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English literature

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um after that time I was uh bounced

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around teaching this teaching that but

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then in the mid 90s because I have a

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friend who's Susan Dr Susan Palmer who's

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a very important scholar of religion we

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got together to do a paper on the

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raelians where we helped or we sort of

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hypothesis about how the UFO myth Works

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in relation to technological society

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which we presented at the society for

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the scientific study of Religion

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conference in 2000 I think it was

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that got picked up by uh Nouveau religio

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which is an academic journal and since

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then it's been included in a number of

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textbooks and it's also a revised

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version is in the Cambridge guide to new

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religious movements so that's so yeah

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um those are my those are my

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qualifications if any and then I've been

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working on this conchworks blog for a

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few years and I've been working on a

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this sort of long form epic poem on and

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off since the mid 90s

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fascinating and uh so you have a lot of

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knowledge in English literature uh and

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Analysis uh history things like that uh

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philosophy especially logical reasoning

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applied uh philosophy even I imagine and

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uh so I remember from your previous

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conversations uh with Louise you

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mentioned at one point that

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um you aren't super convinced by Dr

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Jacques vale's argument that uh and this

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sort of is similar to what Nick was

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saying in some ways that

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um the history of these reports in the

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literature in the history of English

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writing and things like that there very

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similar in some ways but I remember you

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saying that you're skeptical of that in

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other ways like because Val a historical

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description of like an elf was like a

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luminous being you know and then it's

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like you look at that so then you can

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sort of look at the oh that looks kind

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of similar so would you be able to sort

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of detail why you're skeptical of Dr

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Valley's look back over the history and

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claiming that it's all one of the same

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yeah well not just not just valet he's

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not the only one who was the most famous

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proponent of this and of course that was

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his his thesis articulated in passport

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to Magonia most famously

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um and then in some Works subsequent

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um I

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unlike some take history and time very

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seriously

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um any student of Martin Heidegger

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um will have to put time and temporality

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uh in the foreground of the nature of

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the human being and Human Experience and

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human understanding

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because of that

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um any particular

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story has got to be understood in its

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um and that is of course an endless task

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it's one that we can never exhaust

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and for that reason when we try to sort

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of uh project

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um sort of descriptions that we have

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today on to things that seem that strike

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us as similar well that that is I think

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a projection to put it very very simply

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um moreover and I'm not the first to

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make this point I think it's Martin

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cottonmeyer's probably the first comes

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to mind anyway when you actually look

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very carefully at the description of

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um

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00:12:08,530 --> 00:12:06,000
uh the fairies the Shea the uh very

280
00:12:11,210 --> 00:12:08,540
abductions and so on you can find

281
00:12:14,269 --> 00:12:11,220
interesting parallels but there's a lot

282
00:12:16,370 --> 00:12:14,279
of very uh remarkable sticking points as

283
00:12:17,870 --> 00:12:16,380
well uh where they it just doesn't

284
00:12:20,210 --> 00:12:17,880
doesn't jive

285
00:12:22,009 --> 00:12:20,220
what is interesting I mean from a poetic

286
00:12:22,850 --> 00:12:22,019
point of view from a mythological point

287
00:12:26,569 --> 00:12:22,860
of view

288
00:12:28,910 --> 00:12:26,579
uh these sort of narrative parallels

289
00:12:31,069 --> 00:12:28,920
um are very compelling

290
00:12:33,050 --> 00:12:31,079
and very useful when it comes to

291
00:12:36,590 --> 00:12:33,060
thinking in that way

292
00:12:39,290 --> 00:12:36,600
but I'm the first one to sort of you

293
00:12:41,509 --> 00:12:39,300
know hold up a hand and say you know the

294
00:12:43,850 --> 00:12:41,519
ways of understanding are very very

295
00:12:46,550 --> 00:12:43,860
different in the Middle Ages than they

296
00:12:49,250 --> 00:12:46,560
are today they're very different in the

297
00:12:51,410 --> 00:12:49,260
17th century than they are today

298
00:12:54,470 --> 00:12:51,420
so for example

299
00:12:56,569 --> 00:12:54,480
um at the uh archives of the anomalous

300
00:12:58,790 --> 00:12:56,579
conference Jacques valet and others

301
00:13:01,790 --> 00:12:58,800
brought up the example of Saint Francis

302
00:13:05,269 --> 00:13:01,800
of Assisi in Saint Francis of Assisi

303
00:13:07,610 --> 00:13:05,279
from the 13th century is often held up

304
00:13:09,829 --> 00:13:07,620
as an example of what today we would

305
00:13:13,129 --> 00:13:09,839
call a close encounter where there's a

306
00:13:15,470 --> 00:13:13,139
luminous light where there's injuries

307
00:13:17,750 --> 00:13:15,480
suffered

308
00:13:20,090 --> 00:13:17,760
the Stigmata of Saint Francis of Assisi

309
00:13:22,370 --> 00:13:20,100
there are voices that are heard there is

310
00:13:23,690 --> 00:13:22,380
paralysis and so on

311
00:13:26,150 --> 00:13:23,700
however

312
00:13:29,509 --> 00:13:26,160
if you actually look at the stories that

313
00:13:31,670 --> 00:13:29,519
valet was pointing to you find that you

314
00:13:33,530 --> 00:13:31,680
can't take the report at first hand

315
00:13:37,129 --> 00:13:33,540
right this is the first the first

316
00:13:40,069 --> 00:13:37,139
sticking point is that you can't read

317
00:13:43,490 --> 00:13:40,079
um accounts from the Middle Ages in the

318
00:13:45,290 --> 00:13:43,500
same way you read a citing report from

319
00:13:47,810 --> 00:13:45,300
1997.

320
00:13:50,930 --> 00:13:47,820
right a good point is here is that you

321
00:13:53,150 --> 00:13:50,940
know uh during the encounter

322
00:13:55,009 --> 00:13:53,160
um Saint Francis raises his hand three

323
00:13:57,769 --> 00:13:55,019
times

324
00:14:00,050 --> 00:13:57,779
all right now that's not to be taken

325
00:14:01,670 --> 00:14:00,060
literally right Saint Francis is raising

326
00:14:04,310 --> 00:14:01,680
his hand three times because the number

327
00:14:06,650 --> 00:14:04,320
three is significant in Catholic

328
00:14:09,290 --> 00:14:06,660
theology and Catholic symbology and

329
00:14:11,210 --> 00:14:09,300
Catholic iconography right the light

330
00:14:12,889 --> 00:14:11,220
that he sees with an eye in it this is

331
00:14:14,870 --> 00:14:12,899
not a witness report

332
00:14:18,170 --> 00:14:14,880
or if you take it that way you've got a

333
00:14:20,329 --> 00:14:18,180
lot of of philological Labor to do to

334
00:14:21,769 --> 00:14:20,339
justify that that's in fact how you're

335
00:14:24,650 --> 00:14:21,779
going to take it and how we should take

336
00:14:26,930 --> 00:14:24,660
it there's a lot of symbology a lot of

337
00:14:28,310 --> 00:14:26,940
symbolic language you've got to ask why

338
00:14:31,009 --> 00:14:28,320
are they saying what they're saying

339
00:14:34,250 --> 00:14:31,019
what's the rhetoric what's the sort of

340
00:14:35,750 --> 00:14:34,260
code in which they speak right so at the

341
00:14:38,329 --> 00:14:35,760
same time for example to draw a very

342
00:14:40,009 --> 00:14:38,339
famous example I'm sorry the Israelites

343
00:14:42,710 --> 00:14:40,019
did not wander in the wilderness for 40

344
00:14:44,629 --> 00:14:42,720
years right after the slavery in Egypt

345
00:14:47,449 --> 00:14:44,639
after the escape with Moses right they

346
00:14:50,150 --> 00:14:47,459
wanted for 40 years because 40 is a

347
00:14:53,449 --> 00:14:50,160
significant number in Judaism four times

348
00:14:55,550 --> 00:14:53,459
of of change right and that's why the

349
00:14:57,110 --> 00:14:55,560
Lord spends 40 days and 40 nights in the

350
00:14:58,850 --> 00:14:57,120
wilderness after his baptism with John

351
00:15:01,069 --> 00:14:58,860
the Baptist he didn't really spend 40

352
00:15:02,990 --> 00:15:01,079
days 40 nights he spent a significant

353
00:15:05,870 --> 00:15:03,000
symbolically significant amount of time

354
00:15:08,210 --> 00:15:05,880
right signifying the change

355
00:15:11,329 --> 00:15:08,220
so unless you're unless you're aware of

356
00:15:13,009 --> 00:15:11,339
the codes The Narrative codes right that

357
00:15:16,189 --> 00:15:13,019
go into

358
00:15:17,569 --> 00:15:16,199
how these stories are told to get convey

359
00:15:18,710 --> 00:15:17,579
the information that they want to convey

360
00:15:21,550 --> 00:15:18,720
you're not you're just going to

361
00:15:24,889 --> 00:15:21,560
misunderstand them sure that being said

362
00:15:25,910 --> 00:15:24,899
okay it's not so simple

363
00:15:27,829 --> 00:15:25,920
um

364
00:15:29,810 --> 00:15:27,839
because Joshua kutchen

365
00:15:32,210 --> 00:15:29,820
okay would be one of the first to come

366
00:15:34,430 --> 00:15:32,220
back at me and say well no wait a second

367
00:15:37,129 --> 00:15:34,440
here and he could bring together a bring

368
00:15:39,650 --> 00:15:37,139
bring a whole bunch of stories forward

369
00:15:42,410 --> 00:15:39,660
uh that are much more sort of innocent

370
00:15:44,509 --> 00:15:42,420
in their reportage

371
00:15:45,949 --> 00:15:44,519
um which are much more suggestive of the

372
00:15:48,290 --> 00:15:45,959
thesis that okay maybe we are dealing

373
00:15:50,150 --> 00:15:48,300
with a similar kind of phenomenon that

374
00:15:52,670 --> 00:15:50,160
that just that just dresses itself up in

375
00:15:54,949 --> 00:15:52,680
different ways right again I can't come

376
00:15:56,629 --> 00:15:54,959
down hard and fast but what I do want to

377
00:15:59,509 --> 00:15:56,639
say is if we're going to look at

378
00:16:00,769 --> 00:15:59,519
pre-modern stories or non-western

379
00:16:02,990 --> 00:16:00,779
stories

380
00:16:05,569 --> 00:16:03,000
we have to do the philological labor

381
00:16:07,310 --> 00:16:05,579
right that allows us to understand that

382
00:16:09,949 --> 00:16:07,320
the narrative codes that are being used

383
00:16:12,650 --> 00:16:09,959
to articulate that story and only then

384
00:16:14,449 --> 00:16:12,660
can we begin to Guess that oh maybe it's

385
00:16:16,970 --> 00:16:14,459
the same kind of thing

386
00:16:19,310 --> 00:16:16,980
that'll be my position

387
00:16:21,829 --> 00:16:19,320
does that does that answer your query

388
00:16:22,850 --> 00:16:21,839
yes absolutely yeah that's excellent

389
00:16:26,449 --> 00:16:22,860
thank you

390
00:16:28,009 --> 00:16:26,459
um exactly like just one follow-up uh I

391
00:16:30,290 --> 00:16:28,019
would have is that like

392
00:16:32,210 --> 00:16:30,300
an argument that I come up across a lot

393
00:16:33,710 --> 00:16:32,220
online is that

394
00:16:35,090 --> 00:16:33,720
um and it's when I'm arguing with people

395
00:16:37,370 --> 00:16:35,100
on Reddit or something and I say

396
00:16:40,430 --> 00:16:37,380
something to that effect and uh they'll

397
00:16:41,870 --> 00:16:40,440
say back like oh well human history the

398
00:16:43,610 --> 00:16:41,880
way that we've recorded human history

399
00:16:46,009 --> 00:16:43,620
and we understand human history is the

400
00:16:48,410 --> 00:16:46,019
same thing but you believe history right

401
00:16:50,749 --> 00:16:48,420
so like that you think that this event

402
00:16:52,970 --> 00:16:50,759
happened in history but the narrative is

403
00:16:54,710 --> 00:16:52,980
essentially the same quality as the one

404
00:16:55,850 --> 00:16:54,720
that you're discounting here and you

405
00:16:56,870 --> 00:16:55,860
know of course the argument can be made

406
00:16:58,490 --> 00:16:56,880
that you're like talking about something

407
00:17:00,230 --> 00:16:58,500
that's uh Fantastical and so something

408
00:17:01,850 --> 00:17:00,240
that we know about but like what sort of

409
00:17:03,470 --> 00:17:01,860
is is that sort of your approach to that

410
00:17:04,490 --> 00:17:03,480
argument or how would you respond to

411
00:17:06,770 --> 00:17:04,500
that just because I've seen it so many

412
00:17:09,650 --> 00:17:06,780
times I'm not I'm not too sure of the uh

413
00:17:11,090 --> 00:17:09,660
the retort exactly yeah so what what is

414
00:17:13,250 --> 00:17:11,100
it what does the person answer you

415
00:17:14,870 --> 00:17:13,260
exactly again I'm not too sure what

416
00:17:16,669 --> 00:17:14,880
they're what they're getting at the ends

417
00:17:19,309 --> 00:17:16,679
the essence of the criticism that I've

418
00:17:21,770 --> 00:17:19,319
seen frequently is that like our history

419
00:17:24,530 --> 00:17:21,780
books are written out of accounts that

420
00:17:27,409 --> 00:17:24,540
are of the same essentially quality as

421
00:17:29,810 --> 00:17:27,419
many of these historic UFO reports in

422
00:17:32,870 --> 00:17:29,820
quotes and therefore what is the

423
00:17:34,730 --> 00:17:32,880
rationale for discounting one set that

424
00:17:36,770 --> 00:17:34,740
you you know in quotes agree with and

425
00:17:38,710 --> 00:17:36,780
the other that you have you know in

426
00:17:41,630 --> 00:17:38,720
opposition to would be the

427
00:17:43,070 --> 00:17:41,640
arguments but yeah

428
00:17:45,890 --> 00:17:43,080
okay I don't know if I'm if I'm

429
00:17:47,150 --> 00:17:45,900
answering this yeah but but look

430
00:17:49,430 --> 00:17:47,160
um in English we distinguish between

431
00:17:52,450 --> 00:17:49,440
history and story

432
00:17:56,990 --> 00:17:52,460
um you don't in French because French is

433
00:18:00,169 --> 00:17:57,000
history in their story in German

434
00:18:03,169 --> 00:18:00,179
historian history and that's important

435
00:18:05,270 --> 00:18:03,179
uh because one thing we've really come

436
00:18:07,730 --> 00:18:05,280
to understand quite acutely since the

437
00:18:10,549 --> 00:18:07,740
1980s the days of quote unquote High

438
00:18:13,070 --> 00:18:10,559
Theory Big H Big T High theory is that

439
00:18:15,409 --> 00:18:13,080
history is a literary genre

440
00:18:17,930 --> 00:18:15,419
and as such it'll be a certain uh

441
00:18:19,850 --> 00:18:17,940
narrative uh conventions

442
00:18:21,529 --> 00:18:19,860
actually quite surprisingly or not

443
00:18:23,690 --> 00:18:21,539
surprisingly those that are shared with

444
00:18:26,330 --> 00:18:23,700
fictional narratives

445
00:18:29,510 --> 00:18:26,340
um and so we come back around again

446
00:18:32,390 --> 00:18:29,520
um history is not history right I mean I

447
00:18:34,549 --> 00:18:32,400
mean historiography is itself a genre

448
00:18:35,890 --> 00:18:34,559
which presents itself in different ways

449
00:18:38,630 --> 00:18:35,900
and different times in different places

450
00:18:40,669 --> 00:18:38,640
that's the first first great change

451
00:18:43,610 --> 00:18:40,679
great great challenge the Second

452
00:18:46,130 --> 00:18:43,620
Challenge is how to understand uh

453
00:18:49,310 --> 00:18:46,140
narratives that are written out of a

454
00:18:51,350 --> 00:18:49,320
different uh narrative set of

455
00:18:53,270 --> 00:18:51,360
conventions you've always got to ask

456
00:18:57,650 --> 00:18:53,280
that question and the thing is that a

457
00:19:00,289 --> 00:18:57,660
lot of people like Irish Von daniken and

458
00:19:02,230 --> 00:19:00,299
um uh what's his name um the further

459
00:19:06,169 --> 00:19:02,240
with the Netflix series right now

460
00:19:07,630 --> 00:19:06,179
Hancock Graham Hancock yeah they just

461
00:19:10,130 --> 00:19:07,640
they take everything at face value

462
00:19:12,830 --> 00:19:10,140
everything it faced as if it's always

463
00:19:14,570 --> 00:19:12,840
the same now for a journalist I ex I

464
00:19:16,669 --> 00:19:14,580
understand that a journalist hears

465
00:19:20,270 --> 00:19:16,679
everything as a journalistic story

466
00:19:22,430 --> 00:19:20,280
right but here's sorry Graham no so he

467
00:19:24,169 --> 00:19:22,440
asks the question for example well why

468
00:19:26,090 --> 00:19:24,179
are all these stories of culture Heroes

469
00:19:27,830 --> 00:19:26,100
I don't know maybe because wherever you

470
00:19:30,230 --> 00:19:27,840
have a culture you have a myth about

471
00:19:31,730 --> 00:19:30,240
where the culture comes from we'll

472
00:19:33,169 --> 00:19:31,740
figure

473
00:19:34,789 --> 00:19:33,179
um you know why are they the same well

474
00:19:36,289 --> 00:19:34,799
because you know you had people kind of

475
00:19:37,730 --> 00:19:36,299
like coming up with like your culture

476
00:19:39,289 --> 00:19:37,740
and then agricultural leads to settled

477
00:19:41,690 --> 00:19:39,299
society which leads to class division

478
00:19:43,190 --> 00:19:41,700
which leads to architecture and so on

479
00:19:44,990 --> 00:19:43,200
and so forth

480
00:19:47,570 --> 00:19:45,000
um why do they all have you know

481
00:19:48,890 --> 00:19:47,580
interest in astronomy I don't know maybe

482
00:19:50,690 --> 00:19:48,900
because if you're an Agricultural

483
00:19:52,190 --> 00:19:50,700
Society you want a pretty accurate

484
00:19:53,930 --> 00:19:52,200
calendar to make sure that you don't

485
00:19:55,669 --> 00:19:53,940
starve to death

486
00:19:57,289 --> 00:19:55,679
maybe that's a good idea maybe there is

487
00:19:58,850 --> 00:19:57,299
an explanation

488
00:20:00,950 --> 00:19:58,860
um so these are the sorts of things we

489
00:20:03,169 --> 00:20:00,960
have to take into account uh over and

490
00:20:05,930 --> 00:20:03,179
over and over again

491
00:20:08,990 --> 00:20:05,940
um this is not to discount at the same

492
00:20:11,450 --> 00:20:09,000
time these very compelling

493
00:20:13,310 --> 00:20:11,460
um analogs and parallels but you don't

494
00:20:15,770 --> 00:20:13,320
want to fall into the eres Von daniken

495
00:20:17,150 --> 00:20:15,780
syndrome right where everything you know

496
00:20:18,710 --> 00:20:17,160
I mean I've got some great books on the

497
00:20:21,289 --> 00:20:18,720
bookshelf here where they show minarets

498
00:20:23,090 --> 00:20:21,299
oh it looks just like a rocket you know

499
00:20:25,730 --> 00:20:23,100
they must have seen Rockets

500
00:20:27,470 --> 00:20:25,740
well I don't know maybe we're gonna come

501
00:20:30,890 --> 00:20:27,480
up with a slightly more time-brained

502
00:20:33,010 --> 00:20:30,900
approach to to what's going on there

503
00:20:36,409 --> 00:20:33,020
um yeah there's a common object yeah

504
00:20:39,230 --> 00:20:36,419
you know the tower well the tower it

505
00:20:42,669 --> 00:20:39,240
looks like a rocket well yeah sure

506
00:20:44,990 --> 00:20:42,679
sometimes a cigar is just a cigar too

507
00:20:46,789 --> 00:20:45,000
excellent yeah you know you really

508
00:20:48,350 --> 00:20:46,799
answered my question thank you okay I'm

509
00:20:50,690 --> 00:20:48,360
glad yeah nothing not that that's going

510
00:20:52,610 --> 00:20:50,700
to persuade anyone who's persuaded of

511
00:20:55,250 --> 00:20:52,620
course not persuade enough like five

512
00:20:56,450 --> 00:20:55,260
percent this is the thing right as

513
00:20:59,690 --> 00:20:56,460
someone who's read far too much

514
00:21:01,610 --> 00:20:59,700
philosophy with probably far little far

515
00:21:02,570 --> 00:21:01,620
insufficient understanding

516
00:21:04,250 --> 00:21:02,580
um

517
00:21:06,890 --> 00:21:04,260
who can blame me

518
00:21:11,510 --> 00:21:08,870
the common sense

519
00:21:14,510 --> 00:21:11,520
view of the world is that there is a

520
00:21:16,250 --> 00:21:14,520
cosmos of self-identical objects out

521
00:21:18,350 --> 00:21:16,260
there which exist apart from our

522
00:21:20,810 --> 00:21:18,360
perceptions and understandings of them

523
00:21:23,150 --> 00:21:20,820
okay and that's and it's the same

524
00:21:26,450 --> 00:21:23,160
throughout time and space

525
00:21:28,190 --> 00:21:26,460
right so that the relation of me to

526
00:21:30,110 --> 00:21:28,200
something some historical event is the

527
00:21:31,610 --> 00:21:30,120
same as relation with me to the to the

528
00:21:33,110 --> 00:21:31,620
tree outside my window

529
00:21:34,850 --> 00:21:33,120
but in other words there's something

530
00:21:36,710 --> 00:21:34,860
stable out there

531
00:21:37,789 --> 00:21:36,720
but this is of course the completely

532
00:21:39,950 --> 00:21:37,799
discount

533
00:21:41,870 --> 00:21:39,960
the the Consciousness the temporal

534
00:21:44,270 --> 00:21:41,880
Consciousness and all the the

535
00:21:46,130 --> 00:21:44,280
hermeneutic dimensions right all those

536
00:21:49,190 --> 00:21:46,140
aspects of understanding

537
00:21:50,690 --> 00:21:49,200
right that go into making sense of the

538
00:21:52,430 --> 00:21:50,700
world which is something which is which

539
00:21:55,130 --> 00:21:52,440
has made sense of and we can't forget

540
00:21:58,789 --> 00:21:55,140
that and that's always forgotten there's

541
00:22:00,409 --> 00:21:58,799
a two simple minded ontology about the

542
00:22:01,549 --> 00:22:00,419
world which there's a kind of a naive

543
00:22:03,770 --> 00:22:01,559
realism

544
00:22:06,770 --> 00:22:03,780
like the better word

545
00:22:10,190 --> 00:22:06,780
um and a discounting of the activities

546
00:22:12,470 --> 00:22:10,200
of uh the human mind especially the

547
00:22:15,049 --> 00:22:12,480
human mind as a cultured

548
00:22:17,330 --> 00:22:15,059
uh phenomenon something which is as

549
00:22:19,730 --> 00:22:17,340
Richard rorty says culture goes all the

550
00:22:21,890 --> 00:22:19,740
way down I'm not perfectly persuaded of

551
00:22:23,390 --> 00:22:21,900
that but it's a good catchphrase culture

552
00:22:25,250 --> 00:22:23,400
goes all the way down and culture

553
00:22:27,169 --> 00:22:25,260
includes language

554
00:22:29,330 --> 00:22:27,179
right and once you take that into

555
00:22:31,130 --> 00:22:29,340
account then the difference between

556
00:22:34,310 --> 00:22:31,140
different cultures different times

557
00:22:35,870 --> 00:22:34,320
becomes much more obvious and you can

558
00:22:37,430 --> 00:22:35,880
begin to at least take that refraction

559
00:22:40,850 --> 00:22:37,440
into account

560
00:22:42,789 --> 00:22:40,860
well you're not doing Justice to what

561
00:22:47,450 --> 00:22:42,799
you're presumably studying

562
00:22:49,970 --> 00:22:47,460
that'd be my position I think wow

563
00:22:53,270 --> 00:22:49,980
that's wonderful

564
00:22:55,010 --> 00:22:53,280
um so as as soon as you said raelian's

565
00:22:56,570 --> 00:22:55,020
Brian in the back Channel chat I was

566
00:22:59,690 --> 00:22:56,580
like oh I'm gonna ask the next question

567
00:23:03,169 --> 00:22:59,700
so um I skimmed your your paper with uh

568
00:23:05,870 --> 00:23:03,179
Susan Palmer today actually and

569
00:23:10,250 --> 00:23:05,880
um when I think back to the 90s right we

570
00:23:12,950 --> 00:23:10,260
have raelians and Heaven's Gate and now

571
00:23:15,289 --> 00:23:12,960
um we see in what I perceive to be

572
00:23:17,149 --> 00:23:15,299
something of an emerging folk Saint in

573
00:23:18,529 --> 00:23:17,159
like the Chris Bledsoe story for

574
00:23:21,590 --> 00:23:18,539
instance

575
00:23:24,409 --> 00:23:21,600
um what are your views on ufology as an

576
00:23:26,149 --> 00:23:24,419
emergent religion and then also how it's

577
00:23:30,049 --> 00:23:26,159
changed

578
00:23:33,169 --> 00:23:30,059
um from the 90s more Millennial kind of

579
00:23:35,390 --> 00:23:33,179
flavor versus how we're seeing it now in

580
00:23:38,090 --> 00:23:35,400
our current moment oh yeah no that

581
00:23:39,649 --> 00:23:38,100
that's a very rich vein to mind holy

582
00:23:43,450 --> 00:23:39,659
smokes

583
00:23:47,630 --> 00:23:43,460
um first of all the UFO has always been

584
00:23:50,149 --> 00:23:47,640
a religious object right as I remarked

585
00:23:51,590 --> 00:23:50,159
even even before flying sashes as such

586
00:23:52,850 --> 00:23:51,600
appeared

587
00:23:56,090 --> 00:23:52,860
um there were people in the New Age

588
00:23:58,610 --> 00:23:56,100
community in the I am Community who were

589
00:23:59,890 --> 00:23:58,620
who were encountering venusians in caves

590
00:24:02,210 --> 00:23:59,900
in in California

591
00:24:03,710 --> 00:24:02,220
uh the you know the moment that the

592
00:24:06,049 --> 00:24:03,720
flying sashers came on the scene well

593
00:24:09,049 --> 00:24:06,059
who was there but but uh George adamski

594
00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:09,059
and other the contacts he's who brought

595
00:24:14,690 --> 00:24:12,480
in a religious Dimension to it

596
00:24:14,700 --> 00:24:18,950
no I've lost my thread

597
00:24:24,010 --> 00:24:21,130
um so okay so let's go back a little bit

598
00:24:28,190 --> 00:24:24,020
so it's always been religious

599
00:24:30,230 --> 00:24:28,200
UFOs as an emergent religion

600
00:24:31,789 --> 00:24:30,240
um that's a very good question I know

601
00:24:34,610 --> 00:24:31,799
that Diana

602
00:24:36,289 --> 00:24:34,620
Heath as she as she calls herself now is

603
00:24:38,930 --> 00:24:36,299
a great proponent of this View and it's

604
00:24:40,730 --> 00:24:38,940
one one I understand and what I when I I

605
00:24:42,289 --> 00:24:40,740
kind of

606
00:24:44,390 --> 00:24:42,299
share

607
00:24:48,110 --> 00:24:44,400
see that what's interesting about about

608
00:24:51,529 --> 00:24:48,120
the UFO as as religion is that it

609
00:24:52,850 --> 00:24:51,539
it works against uh more traditional

610
00:24:55,310 --> 00:24:52,860
religions especially as we understand

611
00:24:56,330 --> 00:24:55,320
them in the abrahamic religion abrahamic

612
00:24:58,070 --> 00:24:56,340
religions

613
00:24:59,870 --> 00:24:58,080
um but I'm not so as persuaded of this

614
00:25:01,789 --> 00:24:59,880
point as I was when I wrote the paper

615
00:25:04,789 --> 00:25:01,799
with Susan back in the 90s because as

616
00:25:06,770 --> 00:25:04,799
you remember in that paper I said listen

617
00:25:09,049 --> 00:25:06,780
um before modernity

618
00:25:10,970 --> 00:25:09,059
uh or post-modernity and for me they're

619
00:25:13,370 --> 00:25:10,980
the same thing

620
00:25:15,169 --> 00:25:13,380
um there was a a cosmos where there was

621
00:25:17,990 --> 00:25:15,179
an inside and an outside there was a

622
00:25:20,810 --> 00:25:18,000
nature and a supernature and uh unless

623
00:25:22,210 --> 00:25:20,820
you're espinozan Espinoza God is not

624
00:25:25,430 --> 00:25:22,220
identical with nature God is outside

625
00:25:26,990 --> 00:25:25,440
space and time right and with his angels

626
00:25:29,450 --> 00:25:27,000
and likewise I guess the devil is

627
00:25:32,269 --> 00:25:29,460
outside of space and time doubles and so

628
00:25:35,210 --> 00:25:32,279
on and then these creatures intrude into

629
00:25:36,890 --> 00:25:35,220
space and time into nature and you have

630
00:25:38,750 --> 00:25:36,900
to have that idea to make sense of

631
00:25:40,789 --> 00:25:38,760
things like the miraculous

632
00:25:44,090 --> 00:25:40,799
right because the miracle is precisely

633
00:25:47,390 --> 00:25:44,100
that which is Supernatural right however

634
00:25:49,549 --> 00:25:47,400
with modernity this is gets collapsed

635
00:25:51,649 --> 00:25:49,559
and so that today we don't talk about

636
00:25:53,710 --> 00:25:51,659
any place outside of a space in time we

637
00:25:56,029 --> 00:25:53,720
talk about the Multiverse

638
00:25:57,230 --> 00:25:56,039
which is still within nature it's just

639
00:25:59,690 --> 00:25:57,240
that there's kind of different sections

640
00:26:01,430 --> 00:25:59,700
of nature different cells of nature if

641
00:26:02,570 --> 00:26:01,440
you will no longer an inside and an

642
00:26:06,710 --> 00:26:02,580
outside

643
00:26:10,610 --> 00:26:06,720
so any kind of uh religion that might

644
00:26:13,490 --> 00:26:10,620
emerge from the UFO as such

645
00:26:15,409 --> 00:26:13,500
um would be a very strange be a very

646
00:26:17,149 --> 00:26:15,419
modern religion in that regard because

647
00:26:19,490 --> 00:26:17,159
the thing is that wherever the the

648
00:26:21,470 --> 00:26:19,500
beings supposedly come from

649
00:26:23,750 --> 00:26:21,480
whether a different different planet a

650
00:26:25,549 --> 00:26:23,760
distant star uh the interior of the

651
00:26:27,409 --> 00:26:25,559
earth a different dimension they're

652
00:26:29,029 --> 00:26:27,419
still coming from within nature there's

653
00:26:30,409 --> 00:26:29,039
no more supernature

654
00:26:32,330 --> 00:26:30,419
moreover

655
00:26:35,210 --> 00:26:32,340
uh they're very much

656
00:26:37,370 --> 00:26:35,220
they're human All Too Human

657
00:26:39,470 --> 00:26:37,380
um however much quote unquote man is

658
00:26:41,330 --> 00:26:39,480
made in the image of God right as in the

659
00:26:44,930 --> 00:26:41,340
Arabic religions

660
00:26:46,850 --> 00:26:44,940
um aliens are not they're not Gods per

661
00:26:49,610 --> 00:26:46,860
se right they're they're just more

662
00:26:50,930 --> 00:26:49,620
advanced species right so even someone

663
00:26:52,250 --> 00:26:50,940
you know in in the sort of the

664
00:26:55,070 --> 00:26:52,260
channeling community

665
00:26:57,289 --> 00:26:55,080
if you keep track of what of the sort of

666
00:26:58,190 --> 00:26:57,299
myth that people like Michael Salah is

667
00:26:59,750 --> 00:26:58,200
spinning

668
00:27:01,549 --> 00:26:59,760
right which is very sort of new age

669
00:27:04,010 --> 00:27:01,559
again right you're just dealing with

670
00:27:06,230 --> 00:27:04,020
with human beings that are just smarter

671
00:27:08,630 --> 00:27:06,240
or been around longer and they're

672
00:27:10,549 --> 00:27:08,640
they're more crafty they've got like you

673
00:27:11,510 --> 00:27:10,559
know better Teslas

674
00:27:14,570 --> 00:27:11,520
um

675
00:27:18,950 --> 00:27:14,580
that's different again right

676
00:27:20,149 --> 00:27:18,960
that being said it is the case that the

677
00:27:24,350 --> 00:27:20,159
UFO

678
00:27:27,710 --> 00:27:24,360
is possesses a numinous religious

679
00:27:30,529 --> 00:27:27,720
Dimension it creates awe in a way that

680
00:27:33,230 --> 00:27:30,539
the natural phenomenon does not

681
00:27:34,669 --> 00:27:33,240
um it's sort of it it's uh what they use

682
00:27:36,409 --> 00:27:34,679
the Jack Hunter uses the expression

683
00:27:38,630 --> 00:27:36,419
ontological flooding

684
00:27:40,370 --> 00:27:38,640
right it kind of kind of kind of blows

685
00:27:42,350 --> 00:27:40,380
your mind

686
00:27:44,810 --> 00:27:42,360
um in in the best tradition of any sort

687
00:27:46,190 --> 00:27:44,820
of religious like experience

688
00:27:48,769 --> 00:27:46,200
but you know the other thing is that

689
00:27:51,590 --> 00:27:48,779
religion not only kind of gives us a

690
00:27:53,149 --> 00:27:51,600
cosmic orientation what is human beings

691
00:27:56,570 --> 00:27:53,159
where do we come from what are we here

692
00:27:59,750 --> 00:27:56,580
for but it gives us a moral orientation

693
00:28:01,850 --> 00:27:59,760
right one thing that the religion does

694
00:28:04,370 --> 00:28:01,860
I can't imagine I don't know a religion

695
00:28:06,950 --> 00:28:04,380
offhand that doesn't have a moral code

696
00:28:10,130 --> 00:28:06,960
attached to it

697
00:28:13,669 --> 00:28:10,140
um but I don't see a moral code that

698
00:28:15,890 --> 00:28:13,679
comes with the the UFO per se you have a

699
00:28:18,470 --> 00:28:15,900
kind of you have this or like like this

700
00:28:21,470 --> 00:28:18,480
kind of space operatic

701
00:28:24,950 --> 00:28:21,480
um Gnostic vision of good good good

702
00:28:27,049 --> 00:28:24,960
ETS and bad ETS and things like this and

703
00:28:29,750 --> 00:28:27,059
you've got a sort of evolutionary idea

704
00:28:32,870 --> 00:28:29,760
of Ascension right that that they're

705
00:28:34,970 --> 00:28:32,880
guiding us towards something greater

706
00:28:37,250 --> 00:28:34,980
um so you've got that sort of

707
00:28:40,549 --> 00:28:37,260
irrational or trans-rational Dimension

708
00:28:41,630 --> 00:28:40,559
which which religion serves right

709
00:28:42,710 --> 00:28:41,640
um and then perhaps that's what it

710
00:28:44,390 --> 00:28:42,720
answers

711
00:28:45,710 --> 00:28:44,400
one thing that modernity does not give

712
00:28:47,690 --> 00:28:45,720
us as a Direction

713
00:28:49,010 --> 00:28:47,700
it's always doesn't tell us what good or

714
00:28:50,990 --> 00:28:49,020
evil

715
00:28:53,570 --> 00:28:51,000
um it can only describe nature

716
00:28:55,370 --> 00:28:53,580
and this this disorientation that comes

717
00:28:57,049 --> 00:28:55,380
with you know the

718
00:28:58,970 --> 00:28:57,059
um the loss of traditional religion that

719
00:29:02,210 --> 00:28:58,980
the quote-unquote death of God

720
00:29:04,610 --> 00:29:02,220
all right thanks to modernity

721
00:29:08,510 --> 00:29:04,620
uh that leaves people sort of um

722
00:29:11,630 --> 00:29:08,520
floating around and into that vacuum

723
00:29:12,669 --> 00:29:11,640
right arrives the Flying Saucer either

724
00:29:15,350 --> 00:29:12,679
as

725
00:29:18,350 --> 00:29:15,360
something theoric

726
00:29:20,049 --> 00:29:18,360
quote Supernatural or super super

727
00:29:22,970 --> 00:29:20,059
technological

728
00:29:25,850 --> 00:29:22,980
so there there it's now no is this going

729
00:29:27,830 --> 00:29:25,860
to result in you know a new Christianity

730
00:29:30,669 --> 00:29:27,840
or something to replace Christianity

731
00:29:33,529 --> 00:29:30,679
something to replace whatever you know

732
00:29:34,730 --> 00:29:33,539
you see as the the reigning religious

733
00:29:36,350 --> 00:29:34,740
paradigm

734
00:29:37,789 --> 00:29:36,360
which brings to mind the fact that for

735
00:29:39,830 --> 00:29:37,799
the first time in England there are

736
00:29:41,330 --> 00:29:39,840
fewer Christians than anyone else less

737
00:29:42,409 --> 00:29:41,340
than 50 percent of the population is

738
00:29:44,090 --> 00:29:42,419
christian that just came out in the

739
00:29:44,990 --> 00:29:44,100
guardian today

740
00:29:46,610 --> 00:29:45,000
um

741
00:29:48,710 --> 00:29:46,620
will there be like a religion that will

742
00:29:50,630 --> 00:29:48,720
they will take take the place I don't

743
00:29:52,850 --> 00:29:50,640
think so it doesn't seem to offer that

744
00:29:54,970 --> 00:29:52,860
but then of course you see the other the

745
00:29:57,590 --> 00:29:54,980
other interesting analogy is between

746
00:29:59,750 --> 00:29:57,600
nason's Christianity you know back in

747
00:30:02,029 --> 00:29:59,760
the Roman Empire

748
00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:02,039
um and for religion is that that both

749
00:30:05,870 --> 00:30:03,840
seem absurd

750
00:30:08,149 --> 00:30:05,880
right the the educated Romans at the

751
00:30:10,250 --> 00:30:08,159
time looked at Christianity and they

752
00:30:12,649 --> 00:30:10,260
just laughed they said this is nonsense

753
00:30:13,730 --> 00:30:12,659
this is silly these people look they

754
00:30:15,769 --> 00:30:13,740
don't they don't they can they kind

755
00:30:17,330 --> 00:30:15,779
they're kind of stinky they don't speak

756
00:30:19,010 --> 00:30:17,340
right they're not they haven't read

757
00:30:20,510 --> 00:30:19,020
anything and their ideas are just

758
00:30:21,830 --> 00:30:20,520
theological I mean what's going on with

759
00:30:23,690 --> 00:30:21,840
these people who take why is anyone

760
00:30:25,490 --> 00:30:23,700
taking this seriously why is my wife

761
00:30:26,289 --> 00:30:25,500
going to this to this church I don't get

762
00:30:32,510 --> 00:30:26,299
it

763
00:30:34,430 --> 00:30:32,520
all the discourse around UFOs suffers

764
00:30:36,289 --> 00:30:34,440
the same the same fate from the powers

765
00:30:39,289 --> 00:30:36,299
that be the institutional powers of

766
00:30:42,289 --> 00:30:39,299
Science and uh what have you there's

767
00:30:44,090 --> 00:30:42,299
still a great great chuckle Factor

768
00:30:46,130 --> 00:30:44,100
um and I'm not the first one to bring

769
00:30:48,110 --> 00:30:46,140
that point up valet brings that up

770
00:30:50,210 --> 00:30:48,120
himself

771
00:30:52,310 --> 00:30:50,220
what has happened I think and this goes

772
00:30:53,750 --> 00:30:52,320
back to the original question is that

773
00:30:55,909 --> 00:30:53,760
where there was a very sort of strong

774
00:30:59,330 --> 00:30:55,919
nuts and bolts components it has really

775
00:31:00,769 --> 00:30:59,340
been taken up both maybe because of the

776
00:31:02,510 --> 00:31:00,779
way that popular the Popular Science

777
00:31:05,330 --> 00:31:02,520
discourse have developed over time with

778
00:31:07,669 --> 00:31:05,340
the simulation hypothesis with a Quantum

779
00:31:09,110 --> 00:31:07,679
Computing on the um you know on the

780
00:31:12,950 --> 00:31:09,120
horizon perhaps

781
00:31:16,789 --> 00:31:12,960
uh with just the Notions of uh quantum

782
00:31:19,549 --> 00:31:16,799
physics becoming more popularized uh

783
00:31:22,430 --> 00:31:19,559
concerns about Consciousness uh that

784
00:31:24,950 --> 00:31:22,440
Segway or dovetail or combined with

785
00:31:27,590 --> 00:31:24,960
interest in psychedelics and so on

786
00:31:29,750 --> 00:31:27,600
uh it all sees these sort of like mixing

787
00:31:32,389 --> 00:31:29,760
together with that and taking up some of

788
00:31:35,810 --> 00:31:32,399
that residue

789
00:31:38,210 --> 00:31:35,820
um and hence we get the sort of

790
00:31:41,330 --> 00:31:38,220
weird interpretations if you get people

791
00:31:42,769 --> 00:31:41,340
from people like Greer for example

792
00:31:45,169 --> 00:31:42,779
um where people are meditating and and

793
00:31:48,110 --> 00:31:45,179
you know talking to the talking to the

794
00:31:51,289 --> 00:31:48,120
aliens to ESP and so on

795
00:31:54,049 --> 00:31:51,299
so I don't really see it as as a

796
00:31:55,789 --> 00:31:54,059
religion uh in the making but I could be

797
00:31:57,769 --> 00:31:55,799
very wrong about that what is the case

798
00:31:59,990 --> 00:31:57,779
that it has and continues to inspire

799
00:32:03,889 --> 00:32:00,000
religious sentiments it has and

800
00:32:05,029 --> 00:32:03,899
continues to inspire actual uh I used to

801
00:32:07,850 --> 00:32:05,039
I'll put the word in quotation marks

802
00:32:09,169 --> 00:32:07,860
cultic Behavior not only in the

803
00:32:11,870 --> 00:32:09,179
religious form and this this is actually

804
00:32:13,850 --> 00:32:11,880
the the initial um

805
00:32:15,889 --> 00:32:13,860
inspiration for the paper was that you

806
00:32:17,750 --> 00:32:15,899
know how the UFO inspires quote-unquote

807
00:32:18,950 --> 00:32:17,760
cultic Behavior whether secular or

808
00:32:23,830 --> 00:32:18,960
religious

809
00:32:29,810 --> 00:32:26,590
and see all the people in front of um

810
00:32:32,690 --> 00:32:29,820
Taylor Travis or Travis Taylor we

811
00:32:34,669 --> 00:32:32,700
understand this yeah right

812
00:32:37,070 --> 00:32:34,679
um so I'd love to pull a thread uh that

813
00:32:39,710 --> 00:32:37,080
you uh yeah briefly um you were talking

814
00:32:42,830 --> 00:32:39,720
about the history with uh polytheism and

815
00:32:45,470 --> 00:32:42,840
then uh monotheism and how UFOs maybe

816
00:32:49,070 --> 00:32:45,480
don't uh fit so well into the modern uh

817
00:32:53,269 --> 00:32:49,080
Christian uh religious uh sort of world

818
00:32:56,090 --> 00:32:53,279
view but perhaps uh the older version of

819
00:32:59,330 --> 00:32:56,100
with the pluralistic deities was more

820
00:33:01,430 --> 00:32:59,340
um effective for the uh story and it was

821
00:33:04,370 --> 00:33:01,440
making me think that we've got this

822
00:33:07,490 --> 00:33:04,380
thing in modern ufology where we have a

823
00:33:09,590 --> 00:33:07,500
ton of different uh species of aliens

824
00:33:12,649 --> 00:33:09,600
and things and then we're seeing a

825
00:33:15,110 --> 00:33:12,659
consensus emerge where it's all this one

826
00:33:16,789 --> 00:33:15,120
thing that is Supernatural again and so

827
00:33:19,730 --> 00:33:16,799
we're moving from the physical to the

828
00:33:21,230 --> 00:33:19,740
supernatural uh Central thing and in the

829
00:33:23,090 --> 00:33:21,240
history of religion you were making me

830
00:33:24,409 --> 00:33:23,100
realize the history of religion has

831
00:33:26,389 --> 00:33:24,419
moved from

832
00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:26,399
um yeah pluralistic uh you know

833
00:33:33,769 --> 00:33:30,960
pantheons to monotheist uh faiths and um

834
00:33:35,690 --> 00:33:33,779
that's a rather interesting uh parallel

835
00:33:37,430 --> 00:33:35,700
that uh you you sort of made me think

836
00:33:40,669 --> 00:33:37,440
about and I'm wondering

837
00:33:42,950 --> 00:33:40,679
wondering if you see any kind of Reason

838
00:33:45,529 --> 00:33:42,960
a common reason for that between those

839
00:33:47,269 --> 00:33:45,539
two systems well I like I like I like

840
00:33:49,789 --> 00:33:47,279
the pattern that you found this one was

841
00:33:51,830 --> 00:33:49,799
going back and forth

842
00:33:54,230 --> 00:33:51,840
um to me it's still the case that a lot

843
00:33:56,509 --> 00:33:54,240
of the UFO discourse is best understood

844
00:33:58,610 --> 00:33:56,519
as kind of a gnostic mythology

845
00:34:01,190 --> 00:33:58,620
right where there's um there's a lot of

846
00:34:03,529 --> 00:34:01,200
paranoia involved there's a great deal

847
00:34:05,509 --> 00:34:03,539
of plurality involved

848
00:34:07,430 --> 00:34:05,519
um there's a great deal of that's that's

849
00:34:09,950 --> 00:34:07,440
um important about the experiencer right

850
00:34:11,230 --> 00:34:09,960
gnosis differs from

851
00:34:14,389 --> 00:34:11,240
um

852
00:34:16,430 --> 00:34:14,399
episteme in as much as kenosis is

853
00:34:18,649 --> 00:34:16,440
knowledge by acquaintance

854
00:34:21,369 --> 00:34:18,659
right so the mystical experience is

855
00:34:24,349 --> 00:34:21,379
agnostic in as much as the the the

856
00:34:26,450 --> 00:34:24,359
experiencer uh has an acquainted direct

857
00:34:27,409 --> 00:34:26,460
acquaintance a direct intuition of the

858
00:34:29,810 --> 00:34:27,419
Divine

859
00:34:31,849 --> 00:34:29,820
I'm as opposed to the Theologian like

860
00:34:33,290 --> 00:34:31,859
Thomas Aquinas until he had his mystical

861
00:34:35,389 --> 00:34:33,300
experience where it's just a lot of

862
00:34:37,310 --> 00:34:35,399
thinking a lot of reading and a lot of

863
00:34:38,810 --> 00:34:37,320
knowledge about about God and angels and

864
00:34:41,510 --> 00:34:38,820
so on

865
00:34:43,310 --> 00:34:41,520
um so the thing is like gnosticism was

866
00:34:46,430 --> 00:34:43,320
pluralistic in as much as it depended

867
00:34:48,169 --> 00:34:46,440
upon the experiencer right and there's a

868
00:34:49,430 --> 00:34:48,179
lot and the thing is you there's even in

869
00:34:51,710 --> 00:34:49,440
ufology

870
00:34:54,349 --> 00:34:51,720
right there's a great emphasis on the

871
00:34:56,990 --> 00:34:54,359
fact that some some people seem prone to

872
00:34:59,089 --> 00:34:57,000
the experience and others not

873
00:35:02,210 --> 00:34:59,099
okay and for this reason it's been

874
00:35:05,150 --> 00:35:02,220
called agnostic uh so so the thing is

875
00:35:08,150 --> 00:35:05,160
that it doesn't fit our ordinary frames

876
00:35:10,970 --> 00:35:08,160
of uh epistemology so like physics

877
00:35:13,069 --> 00:35:10,980
anybody can conduct a wave tank

878
00:35:14,089 --> 00:35:13,079
experiment and presumably get the same

879
00:35:17,870 --> 00:35:14,099
results

880
00:35:20,690 --> 00:35:17,880
in ufology and other fields of the

881
00:35:22,190 --> 00:35:20,700
related to it only some people can see

882
00:35:24,530 --> 00:35:22,200
the fairy they have to have Second Sight

883
00:35:26,810 --> 00:35:24,540
only some people can actually see the

884
00:35:29,210 --> 00:35:26,820
flying saucers only some people will

885
00:35:30,349 --> 00:35:29,220
have experience with the entities that

886
00:35:32,930 --> 00:35:30,359
fly them

887
00:35:35,930 --> 00:35:32,940
okay and that maybe got to got to do

888
00:35:37,010 --> 00:35:35,940
with their brain uh formation might have

889
00:35:39,470 --> 00:35:37,020
something to do with something else we

890
00:35:41,150 --> 00:35:39,480
don't know moreover there's lots of

891
00:35:44,030 --> 00:35:41,160
different gods lots of different species

892
00:35:46,609 --> 00:35:44,040
lots of different creatures

893
00:35:48,170 --> 00:35:46,619
um and some of them are malign and some

894
00:35:50,329 --> 00:35:48,180
of them are benign and you don't know

895
00:35:52,609 --> 00:35:50,339
which is which and if you read a lot of

896
00:35:55,430 --> 00:35:52,619
gnosticism boy it sure sounds familiar

897
00:35:57,470 --> 00:35:55,440
now this drive towards a unified field

898
00:35:59,030 --> 00:35:57,480
again right that we that we mentioned

899
00:36:01,750 --> 00:35:59,040
earlier

900
00:36:03,890 --> 00:36:01,760
um that would seem

901
00:36:06,109 --> 00:36:03,900
to follow from a number of different

902
00:36:08,030 --> 00:36:06,119
impulses wouldn't it

903
00:36:10,490 --> 00:36:08,040
um on the one hand

904
00:36:13,130 --> 00:36:10,500
in the anglosphere now you see this is

905
00:36:16,310 --> 00:36:13,140
the other thing right a lot of our

906
00:36:18,770 --> 00:36:16,320
um UFO discourse comes to us out of the

907
00:36:22,370 --> 00:36:18,780
United States which is a profoundly

908
00:36:24,230 --> 00:36:22,380
Christian country in its own weird way

909
00:36:24,770 --> 00:36:24,240
right

910
00:36:26,950 --> 00:36:24,780
um

911
00:36:29,750 --> 00:36:26,960
yes

912
00:36:32,810 --> 00:36:29,760
and uh from that will come a certain

913
00:36:35,510 --> 00:36:32,820
drive towards the the monotheistic right

914
00:36:37,970 --> 00:36:35,520
or dualistic a manichaeism right between

915
00:36:40,490 --> 00:36:37,980
good and evil between God and Satan

916
00:36:43,670 --> 00:36:40,500
and that's eschatological too and the

917
00:36:45,290 --> 00:36:43,680
esket oh boy oh boy yeah exposure I mean

918
00:36:47,329 --> 00:36:45,300
and Luis has made this point and among

919
00:36:49,849 --> 00:36:47,339
among others right that that this drive

920
00:36:52,910 --> 00:36:49,859
towards disclosure Bears a lot of

921
00:36:55,609 --> 00:36:52,920
resemblance to uh the the eschatological

922
00:36:57,730 --> 00:36:55,619
drive in in fundamentalist Christianity

923
00:37:00,470 --> 00:36:57,740
right that Christ is going to come back

924
00:37:03,190 --> 00:37:00,480
I mean revelation after all means quote

925
00:37:06,050 --> 00:37:03,200
unquote disclosure

926
00:37:08,510 --> 00:37:06,060
take the lid off the pot that's what it

927
00:37:11,690 --> 00:37:08,520
means reveal that's what it means

928
00:37:13,910 --> 00:37:11,700
so now but to get back to the to the to

929
00:37:16,430 --> 00:37:13,920
the sort of monotheistic religions keep

930
00:37:19,430 --> 00:37:16,440
in mind that Christianity for all of its

931
00:37:22,430 --> 00:37:19,440
overt monotheism is very polytheistic I

932
00:37:24,589 --> 00:37:22,440
was raised a Catholic okay and you've

933
00:37:26,510 --> 00:37:24,599
got you've got God the Father oh wait

934
00:37:27,829 --> 00:37:26,520
there's God the son and there's the Holy

935
00:37:30,050 --> 00:37:27,839
Spirit and oh wait there's the Virgin

936
00:37:32,450 --> 00:37:30,060
Mary and oh wait there's all the angels

937
00:37:34,430 --> 00:37:32,460
and so it's kind of a covert polytheism

938
00:37:37,250 --> 00:37:34,440
all right

939
00:37:38,990 --> 00:37:37,260
um Judaism begins actually with it with

940
00:37:41,810 --> 00:37:39,000
with a male and female god going back

941
00:37:44,990 --> 00:37:41,820
back back back and the monotheistic

942
00:37:47,569 --> 00:37:45,000
Drive actually occurs when Judaism had

943
00:37:50,030 --> 00:37:47,579
to defend itself uh and and distinguish

944
00:37:52,790 --> 00:37:50,040
itself from the polytheistic uh peoples

945
00:37:55,430 --> 00:37:52,800
among which they they lived among whom

946
00:37:57,410 --> 00:37:55,440
they had been enslaved right so Isaiah

947
00:38:00,230 --> 00:37:57,420
comes out but there's only one God and

948
00:38:02,750 --> 00:38:00,240
it's our God very forcefully to help

949
00:38:06,230 --> 00:38:02,760
create a kind of cultural coherence for

950
00:38:13,790 --> 00:38:09,950
um in Islam I'm not really authorized to

951
00:38:15,770 --> 00:38:13,800
say I don't know Islam that well but I

952
00:38:17,690 --> 00:38:15,780
bet if you scratch the surface you're

953
00:38:19,730 --> 00:38:17,700
going to find certain polytheistic

954
00:38:22,390 --> 00:38:19,740
Dimensions going on well what you just

955
00:38:24,589 --> 00:38:22,400
said it's like we're militant isn't it

956
00:38:27,109 --> 00:38:24,599
it's very interesting to me what you

957
00:38:29,750 --> 00:38:27,119
just said you pointed out that in

958
00:38:33,430 --> 00:38:29,760
Judaism historically the drive towards

959
00:38:36,349 --> 00:38:33,440
monotheism was motivated by prosecution

960
00:38:37,849 --> 00:38:36,359
I understand it now that's kind of

961
00:38:40,069 --> 00:38:37,859
interesting because if we look at the

962
00:38:42,109 --> 00:38:40,079
Modern UFO Community when they were

963
00:38:44,089 --> 00:38:42,119
fragmented seeing it all as mechanistic

964
00:38:46,030 --> 00:38:44,099
and different entities you know there

965
00:38:49,130 --> 00:38:46,040
was you have to calculating a lot of uh

966
00:38:52,370 --> 00:38:49,140
critiques and uh ridicule and so what we

967
00:38:55,150 --> 00:38:52,380
maybe have done societally is have we

968
00:38:57,349 --> 00:38:55,160
pushed them into a radicalized uh

969
00:38:59,870 --> 00:38:57,359
monotheistic culture in a similar way

970
00:39:02,930 --> 00:38:59,880
that uh religions have tended towards

971
00:39:05,089 --> 00:39:02,940
that yeah who's the Isaiah of um about

972
00:39:06,349 --> 00:39:05,099
the youthological the UFO people I would

973
00:39:07,970 --> 00:39:06,359
want to say the highest would call them

974
00:39:09,530 --> 00:39:07,980
that's a good question you know it's

975
00:39:11,569 --> 00:39:09,540
also the case that you know speak more

976
00:39:14,150 --> 00:39:11,579
philosophically

977
00:39:16,970 --> 00:39:14,160
um that there is a drive to Unity

978
00:39:18,170 --> 00:39:16,980
in the human understanding

979
00:39:19,730 --> 00:39:18,180
um however much you might want to be a

980
00:39:21,530 --> 00:39:19,740
cultural relativist

981
00:39:24,890 --> 00:39:21,540
there does come a time when push comes

982
00:39:27,170 --> 00:39:24,900
to shove and you've got to say you know

983
00:39:30,170 --> 00:39:27,180
what is true

984
00:39:31,790 --> 00:39:30,180
um because we can't we can't

985
00:39:34,550 --> 00:39:31,800
I don't know maybe I should speak for

986
00:39:37,910 --> 00:39:34,560
myself uh but but reason has a hard time

987
00:39:39,589 --> 00:39:37,920
dealing with persistent contradictions

988
00:39:41,210 --> 00:39:39,599
right because the ultimate of the world

989
00:39:43,190 --> 00:39:41,220
is one thing and in fact you couldn't

990
00:39:44,630 --> 00:39:43,200
have a contradiction unless the world

991
00:39:46,130 --> 00:39:44,640
were one thing within which those two

992
00:39:47,569 --> 00:39:46,140
contradictory elements were brought

993
00:39:51,250 --> 00:39:47,579
together

994
00:39:54,470 --> 00:39:51,260
right so the fundamental drive to Unity

995
00:39:56,870 --> 00:39:54,480
in in reason to use a cantian term or

996
00:39:57,589 --> 00:39:56,880
the understanding to use a hermeneutic

997
00:40:00,770 --> 00:39:57,599
term

998
00:40:02,390 --> 00:40:00,780
uh that seems nascent to or sort of

999
00:40:05,810 --> 00:40:02,400
characteristic of at least Western

1000
00:40:08,089 --> 00:40:05,820
culture if not human reason as such

1001
00:40:09,550 --> 00:40:08,099
that's a big thing to say and I'm

1002
00:40:13,370 --> 00:40:09,560
talking about that a lot more before I

1003
00:40:14,990 --> 00:40:13,380
set it up as something to defend

1004
00:40:17,990 --> 00:40:15,000
so I don't does that answer your

1005
00:40:20,810 --> 00:40:18,000
question hopefully not hopefully not

1006
00:40:21,770 --> 00:40:20,820
enough of it to be uh interesting I'm

1007
00:40:23,030 --> 00:40:21,780
going to keep thinking about it though

1008
00:40:24,589 --> 00:40:23,040
because uh you're really bringing some

1009
00:40:28,430 --> 00:40:24,599
things to my mind but uh yeah I'm happy

1010
00:40:30,470 --> 00:40:28,440
yeah what are some of the semiotic

1011
00:40:32,410 --> 00:40:30,480
um similarities between like you talked

1012
00:40:36,349 --> 00:40:32,420
about the Airship stories from the late

1013
00:40:39,410 --> 00:40:36,359
19th century uh and the current

1014
00:40:40,550 --> 00:40:39,420
um brouhaha about the Nimitz Encounters

1015
00:40:44,210 --> 00:40:40,560
in the Navy

1016
00:40:48,349 --> 00:40:44,220
other Navy um Encounters of Europe

1017
00:40:51,050 --> 00:40:48,359
well that's a yeah my go-to answer

1018
00:40:54,410 --> 00:40:51,060
that's a good question

1019
00:40:56,750 --> 00:40:54,420
um I mean the thing is what it what is

1020
00:41:00,730 --> 00:40:56,760
what is delightful about about the whole

1021
00:41:05,150 --> 00:41:00,740
Airship uh stories from 96 97 primarily

1022
00:41:08,150 --> 00:41:05,160
semiotically is it is it it repeats

1023
00:41:10,069 --> 00:41:08,160
the modern version over again

1024
00:41:11,870 --> 00:41:10,079
I'd be I'd be hesitant to sort of

1025
00:41:14,030 --> 00:41:11,880
connect it up with the uh the Nimitz

1026
00:41:17,390 --> 00:41:14,040
stories and so on but if you look at the

1027
00:41:19,250 --> 00:41:17,400
airships first of all uh they mimic the

1028
00:41:21,170 --> 00:41:19,260
um the aeronautical science of the day

1029
00:41:23,030 --> 00:41:21,180
we were just on the verge of creating

1030
00:41:24,290 --> 00:41:23,040
such things although they didn't they

1031
00:41:25,609 --> 00:41:24,300
didn't look the same way they didn't

1032
00:41:27,410 --> 00:41:25,619
sound the same way they didn't fly the

1033
00:41:29,690 --> 00:41:27,420
same way

1034
00:41:31,849 --> 00:41:29,700
um just like you have the Roswell crash

1035
00:41:34,670 --> 00:41:31,859
and other you know much more frequent

1036
00:41:36,829 --> 00:41:34,680
crashes you had crashes in in Aurora

1037
00:41:39,290 --> 00:41:36,839
Texas for example

1038
00:41:43,069 --> 00:41:39,300
um there's a story of a cattle

1039
00:41:48,530 --> 00:41:45,470
um which was a hoax we know this is a

1040
00:41:50,210 --> 00:41:48,540
hoax but it's funny how it comes up and

1041
00:41:52,190 --> 00:41:50,220
actually what happens is the the cow

1042
00:41:54,410 --> 00:41:52,200
that they find later is mutilated

1043
00:41:57,170 --> 00:41:54,420
exactly as cows will come to be

1044
00:41:59,450 --> 00:41:57,180
mutilated in the modern era

1045
00:42:02,750 --> 00:41:59,460
all right

1046
00:42:03,609 --> 00:42:02,760
um moreover you had a great variety of

1047
00:42:05,329 --> 00:42:03,619
um

1048
00:42:08,390 --> 00:42:05,339
occupants

1049
00:42:10,310 --> 00:42:08,400
of the the airships uh sometimes they

1050
00:42:12,950 --> 00:42:10,320
were tall and blonde and naked

1051
00:42:16,970 --> 00:42:12,960
ask me how or why sometimes they were

1052
00:42:20,150 --> 00:42:16,980
diminutive and from Mars okay

1053
00:42:21,410 --> 00:42:20,160
um sometimes they were human inventors

1054
00:42:22,609 --> 00:42:21,420
um sometimes they appeared to be

1055
00:42:24,109 --> 00:42:22,619
foreigners

1056
00:42:26,150 --> 00:42:24,119
all right

1057
00:42:28,010 --> 00:42:26,160
um and sometimes in the in the 50s it

1058
00:42:29,390 --> 00:42:28,020
was funny how you would have

1059
00:42:30,710 --> 00:42:29,400
um youthfulness described as if they

1060
00:42:33,050 --> 00:42:30,720
were Italian

1061
00:42:34,730 --> 00:42:33,060
any kind of short short and dark-haired

1062
00:42:36,829 --> 00:42:34,740
and swarthy

1063
00:42:39,650 --> 00:42:36,839
um so you had that that as well so kind

1064
00:42:43,310 --> 00:42:39,660
of all the motifs that you find in the

1065
00:42:44,450 --> 00:42:43,320
modern era you have already in the the

1066
00:42:47,930 --> 00:42:44,460
airship

1067
00:42:49,970 --> 00:42:47,940
uh era in 96-97 and what's interesting

1068
00:42:51,890 --> 00:42:49,980
about that is I think I think a strong

1069
00:42:53,990 --> 00:42:51,900
case can be made that there were in fact

1070
00:42:56,810 --> 00:42:54,000
no real Airship sightings

1071
00:42:59,690 --> 00:42:56,820
if this was purely an invention of the

1072
00:43:01,309 --> 00:42:59,700
yellow journalism of the day

1073
00:43:02,870 --> 00:43:01,319
um and if I'll have to get one of my

1074
00:43:04,849 --> 00:43:02,880
unpaid interns to get to work on that

1075
00:43:07,010 --> 00:43:04,859
maybe set up a team

1076
00:43:09,349 --> 00:43:07,020
um and there's a nice little research

1077
00:43:11,510 --> 00:43:09,359
project there or a book I think a

1078
00:43:14,630 --> 00:43:11,520
wonderful book in either media studies

1079
00:43:16,130 --> 00:43:14,640
or folklore or something maybe someone's

1080
00:43:17,809 --> 00:43:16,140
already done it I I don't have that book

1081
00:43:19,069 --> 00:43:17,819
on my bookshelf but I think that'd be a

1082
00:43:23,150 --> 00:43:19,079
great that'd be a very interesting

1083
00:43:25,670 --> 00:43:23,160
thesis to to probe and sort of test

1084
00:43:27,710 --> 00:43:25,680
um was is it all just the yellow

1085
00:43:29,990 --> 00:43:27,720
journalism of the day and if so what

1086
00:43:32,510 --> 00:43:30,000
does that tell us about today and how

1087
00:43:34,730 --> 00:43:32,520
did it happen how did it work uh for

1088
00:43:35,990 --> 00:43:34,740
whom it was just to sell papers or was

1089
00:43:38,030 --> 00:43:36,000
it had something to do with the

1090
00:43:39,589 --> 00:43:38,040
Spanish-American War coming up good

1091
00:43:40,849 --> 00:43:39,599
question

1092
00:43:43,069 --> 00:43:40,859
Etc

1093
00:43:48,950 --> 00:43:43,079
so I I wouldn't say that's what semiotic

1094
00:43:55,010 --> 00:43:52,790
they are you um you began touching on

1095
00:43:57,410 --> 00:43:55,020
this and I'd love to dig in a little bit

1096
00:44:00,829 --> 00:43:57,420
further around

1097
00:44:03,109 --> 00:44:00,839
um ufology is speaking to popular

1098
00:44:05,630 --> 00:44:03,119
anxiety about technology and

1099
00:44:08,750 --> 00:44:05,640
surveillance I was thinking of it as

1100
00:44:11,450 --> 00:44:08,760
like an igrigor right this sort of like

1101
00:44:14,030 --> 00:44:11,460
Collective outgrowth of the popular

1102
00:44:14,710 --> 00:44:14,040
Consciousness

1103
00:44:19,130 --> 00:44:14,720
um

1104
00:44:21,470 --> 00:44:19,140
particularly with regards to what's

1105
00:44:25,069 --> 00:44:21,480
effectively Global and existential risk

1106
00:44:27,470 --> 00:44:25,079
around climate catastrophe War

1107
00:44:28,190 --> 00:44:27,480
um and I also think about

1108
00:44:31,550 --> 00:44:28,200
um

1109
00:44:34,430 --> 00:44:31,560
the reports of UFOs appearing say at

1110
00:44:36,290 --> 00:44:34,440
nuclear missile silos so um I'm trying

1111
00:44:40,370 --> 00:44:36,300
to tie this all together into this

1112
00:44:41,990 --> 00:44:40,380
notion of ufology providing a Redemptive

1113
00:44:44,329 --> 00:44:42,000
Arc

1114
00:44:46,250 --> 00:44:44,339
um to humanity and I was wondering if

1115
00:44:49,370 --> 00:44:46,260
you could just dig a little bit more

1116
00:44:50,329 --> 00:44:49,380
into that particularly around

1117
00:44:54,650 --> 00:44:50,339
um

1118
00:44:58,670 --> 00:44:54,660
are our current sort of technological uh

1119
00:45:00,050 --> 00:44:58,680
I would say anxiety and crises in 2022

1120
00:45:03,130 --> 00:45:00,060
yeah

1121
00:45:07,790 --> 00:45:03,140
there it's funny there are a number of

1122
00:45:08,450 --> 00:45:07,800
possible ways to answer that

1123
00:45:11,390 --> 00:45:08,460
um

1124
00:45:14,750 --> 00:45:11,400
I think that the first way that comes to

1125
00:45:16,190 --> 00:45:14,760
mind is the the UFO as a kind of free

1126
00:45:19,010 --> 00:45:16,200
energy technology

1127
00:45:22,370 --> 00:45:19,020
uh this is a big theme in Stephen Greer

1128
00:45:24,230 --> 00:45:22,380
for example and not him alone

1129
00:45:27,530 --> 00:45:24,240
um that the UFO represents a kind of

1130
00:45:29,690 --> 00:45:27,540
Technology a free energy technology a

1131
00:45:32,809 --> 00:45:29,700
zero point technology which is a

1132
00:45:35,210 --> 00:45:32,819
technology without emissions

1133
00:45:36,890 --> 00:45:35,220
all right uh which is an infinite

1134
00:45:38,450 --> 00:45:36,900
technology so in in the same way in the

1135
00:45:40,309 --> 00:45:38,460
more sort of

1136
00:45:43,490 --> 00:45:40,319
Orthodox mundane world where we're

1137
00:45:44,390 --> 00:45:43,500
trying to develop nuclear fusion

1138
00:45:47,390 --> 00:45:44,400
um

1139
00:45:52,250 --> 00:45:47,400
the the UFO was seen as

1140
00:45:54,230 --> 00:45:52,260
um a possible solution to the

1141
00:45:56,990 --> 00:45:54,240
climate change crisis because it gives

1142
00:46:00,349 --> 00:45:57,000
us a free emission I'm sorry an infinite

1143
00:46:02,809 --> 00:46:00,359
emission free source of energy

1144
00:46:05,809 --> 00:46:02,819
that's first so as a technological

1145
00:46:07,250 --> 00:46:05,819
salvation right so again what's going to

1146
00:46:08,809 --> 00:46:07,260
save us from the mess that technology

1147
00:46:10,190 --> 00:46:08,819
has gotten us into

1148
00:46:12,050 --> 00:46:10,200
technology

1149
00:46:14,329 --> 00:46:12,060
all right uh the same kind of thinking

1150
00:46:15,770 --> 00:46:14,339
more technology that's the same sort of

1151
00:46:17,390 --> 00:46:15,780
thing that goes into geoengineering

1152
00:46:19,309 --> 00:46:17,400
right

1153
00:46:21,829 --> 00:46:19,319
um we've dealed we've inadvertently

1154
00:46:23,210 --> 00:46:21,839
geo-engineered uh the earth into the

1155
00:46:25,010 --> 00:46:23,220
situation we're in so we're going to

1156
00:46:26,569 --> 00:46:25,020
have to like like now choose to do it

1157
00:46:29,329 --> 00:46:26,579
our own way

1158
00:46:32,569 --> 00:46:29,339
and hopefully with greater success

1159
00:46:34,609 --> 00:46:32,579
so in that regard second of all there's

1160
00:46:38,690 --> 00:46:34,619
a sort of social and political Dimension

1161
00:46:41,150 --> 00:46:38,700
where uh it's uh it's it's imagined that

1162
00:46:42,890 --> 00:46:41,160
by people like Bruce Bryce zybel and

1163
00:46:44,630 --> 00:46:42,900
Richard Dolan and others kind of

1164
00:46:46,550 --> 00:46:44,640
following up from the very famous quip

1165
00:46:49,250 --> 00:46:46,560
that Ronald Reagan supposedly gave to

1166
00:46:50,870 --> 00:46:49,260
Gorbachev that oh if we faced an Invader

1167
00:46:52,490 --> 00:46:50,880
from outer space then the the nations of

1168
00:46:54,650 --> 00:46:52,500
the Earth would unify

1169
00:46:56,630 --> 00:46:54,660
so among the disclosure crowd there's a

1170
00:46:58,010 --> 00:46:56,640
lot of speculation about well okay once

1171
00:46:59,990 --> 00:46:58,020
once we're once it comes out and it's

1172
00:47:02,690 --> 00:47:00,000
revealed to us that okay we're being

1173
00:47:05,270 --> 00:47:02,700
visited by extraterrestrials or extra

1174
00:47:07,130 --> 00:47:05,280
dimensionals or whatever you have

1175
00:47:09,950 --> 00:47:07,140
um what effect will that have

1176
00:47:12,290 --> 00:47:09,960
and one answer that is proposed is that

1177
00:47:14,690 --> 00:47:12,300
humankind will recognize itself as as

1178
00:47:16,609 --> 00:47:14,700
one species and the differences that

1179
00:47:18,290 --> 00:47:16,619
divide us will will pale in comparison

1180
00:47:20,569 --> 00:47:18,300
to the difference that we share or that

1181
00:47:23,329 --> 00:47:20,579
we have that we bear towards these

1182
00:47:24,829 --> 00:47:23,339
aliens and this will result in in global

1183
00:47:27,710 --> 00:47:24,839
global peace

1184
00:47:29,089 --> 00:47:27,720
right so there's your answer to war and

1185
00:47:31,550 --> 00:47:29,099
competition

1186
00:47:34,309 --> 00:47:31,560
uh moreover of course going back to the

1187
00:47:37,130 --> 00:47:34,319
technological Dimension uh any advanced

1188
00:47:39,230 --> 00:47:37,140
uh and then you find this in in seti as

1189
00:47:40,730 --> 00:47:39,240
well right the idea one of the reasons

1190
00:47:42,950 --> 00:47:40,740
we want to contact

1191
00:47:44,930 --> 00:47:42,960
um another civilization not of this

1192
00:47:46,670 --> 00:47:44,940
Earth is that well if they're Advanced

1193
00:47:48,290 --> 00:47:46,680
enough to talk to us then they must have

1194
00:47:49,329 --> 00:47:48,300
been through the same problems that we

1195
00:47:52,069 --> 00:47:49,339
have

1196
00:47:53,990 --> 00:47:52,079
overpopulation pollution perhaps global

1197
00:47:56,510 --> 00:47:54,000
warming and so on and maybe they could

1198
00:47:59,630 --> 00:47:56,520
share their solution to that problem

1199
00:48:02,690 --> 00:47:59,640
okay so even among sort of more sober re

1200
00:48:05,329 --> 00:48:02,700
researchers such as the study crowd uh

1201
00:48:06,710 --> 00:48:05,339
there's that that drive that okay uh

1202
00:48:08,930 --> 00:48:06,720
other people have been to what we're

1203
00:48:11,210 --> 00:48:08,940
going through and therefore they can

1204
00:48:16,010 --> 00:48:11,220
give us their answers

1205
00:48:20,690 --> 00:48:18,710
yeah that I'm sure there are other ways

1206
00:48:23,150 --> 00:48:20,700
to respond to that but those would be

1207
00:48:25,490 --> 00:48:23,160
the the top three off off the top of my

1208
00:48:29,450 --> 00:48:25,500
head anyway

1209
00:48:36,950 --> 00:48:34,910
I mean your thoughts I'm yeah I I'm very

1210
00:48:38,750 --> 00:48:36,960
fascinated

1211
00:48:42,230 --> 00:48:38,760
like you keep in mind I don't buy any of

1212
00:48:47,510 --> 00:48:44,290
um

1213
00:48:49,670 --> 00:48:47,520
see for me for me this is this is what's

1214
00:48:51,349 --> 00:48:49,680
important right but anyway sorry

1215
00:48:52,910 --> 00:48:51,359
someone's saying something here please

1216
00:48:55,309 --> 00:48:52,920
go ahead Nick

1217
00:48:57,410 --> 00:48:55,319
oh I said that speaks more to

1218
00:48:59,410 --> 00:48:57,420
um the fact that we're we're looking for

1219
00:49:01,370 --> 00:48:59,420
ourselves I think seti

1220
00:49:04,190 --> 00:49:01,380
City School we're kind of looking for

1221
00:49:06,609 --> 00:49:04,200
ourselves too and same with the uh the

1222
00:49:10,069 --> 00:49:06,619
contact DS It's always it's always us

1223
00:49:11,569 --> 00:49:10,079
the they're the colonizers they are um

1224
00:49:14,270 --> 00:49:11,579
they're the answer to these problems and

1225
00:49:16,190 --> 00:49:14,280
they must have experienced what we did I

1226
00:49:20,329 --> 00:49:16,200
I can't understand it so I must assume

1227
00:49:24,290 --> 00:49:22,730
do you think that um you followed I've

1228
00:49:27,170 --> 00:49:24,300
always thought of youthful which is more

1229
00:49:28,190 --> 00:49:27,180
more of a subculture than a field

1230
00:49:35,329 --> 00:49:28,200
um

1231
00:49:37,210 --> 00:49:35,339
role-playing game where people can just

1232
00:49:40,670 --> 00:49:37,220
pop music

1233
00:49:42,230 --> 00:49:40,680
that's funny what role what ways do you

1234
00:49:44,990 --> 00:49:42,240
think that it is a role-playing game and

1235
00:49:46,970 --> 00:49:45,000
what in what way do you think it's not

1236
00:49:47,870 --> 00:49:46,980
well what in life is not a role-playing

1237
00:49:52,370 --> 00:49:47,880
game

1238
00:49:54,170 --> 00:49:52,380
I mean look this is no answer yeah

1239
00:49:55,790 --> 00:49:54,180
the bloody the subject position this is

1240
00:49:58,370 --> 00:49:55,800
the whole idea of interpolation in

1241
00:50:01,490 --> 00:49:58,380
ideology critique is it is it we're

1242
00:50:03,109 --> 00:50:01,500
provided with these slots into which we

1243
00:50:05,690 --> 00:50:03,119
put ourselves

1244
00:50:11,630 --> 00:50:05,700
right a male female student worker

1245
00:50:16,309 --> 00:50:13,630
whether these generals

1246
00:50:21,050 --> 00:50:16,319
in which we all Place ourselves and then

1247
00:50:26,690 --> 00:50:23,390
that being said

1248
00:50:27,829 --> 00:50:26,700
I you've got I've got to say that there

1249
00:50:31,609 --> 00:50:27,839
is

1250
00:50:35,450 --> 00:50:31,619
um a drive to make ufology a much more

1251
00:50:39,890 --> 00:50:35,460
to to found it as a serious discipline

1252
00:50:41,329 --> 00:50:39,900
so you have you uapx for example you

1253
00:50:44,390 --> 00:50:41,339
have the society for scientific

1254
00:50:46,849 --> 00:50:44,400
exploration and their work you've got

1255
00:50:48,770 --> 00:50:46,859
the group around the new Journal limina

1256
00:50:50,930 --> 00:50:48,780
which is working towards this sort of

1257
00:50:52,549 --> 00:50:50,940
foundational work

1258
00:50:54,349 --> 00:50:52,559
um and I just found out today about

1259
00:50:55,670 --> 00:50:54,359
another group in Canada here the name

1260
00:50:58,010 --> 00:50:55,680
eludes me

1261
00:51:00,109 --> 00:50:58,020
uh they're primarily francophone

1262
00:51:02,150 --> 00:51:00,119
and I'm sure there are other groups

1263
00:51:05,750 --> 00:51:02,160
around around the world that are trying

1264
00:51:07,069 --> 00:51:05,760
to to establish ufology or UAP studies

1265
00:51:09,410 --> 00:51:07,079
as a science

1266
00:51:10,309 --> 00:51:09,420
uh in the University of Wurzburg in

1267
00:51:12,049 --> 00:51:10,319
Germany

1268
00:51:14,150 --> 00:51:12,059
uh they've actually established a

1269
00:51:16,970 --> 00:51:14,160
program in I think the physics

1270
00:51:19,870 --> 00:51:16,980
department but I could be wrong uh for

1271
00:51:23,270 --> 00:51:19,880
UAP studies

1272
00:51:25,130 --> 00:51:23,280
when a German University uh establishes

1273
00:51:26,329 --> 00:51:25,140
a program like this you've got to sit up

1274
00:51:29,329 --> 00:51:26,339
and take notice because they're a pretty

1275
00:51:32,089 --> 00:51:29,339
serious bunch and they you know they're

1276
00:51:33,770 --> 00:51:32,099
not going to that in let in the woo as

1277
00:51:35,510 --> 00:51:33,780
it were

1278
00:51:37,549 --> 00:51:35,520
um well that's an interesting point uh

1279
00:51:40,549 --> 00:51:37,559
Brian because I've I've

1280
00:51:42,890 --> 00:51:40,559
taken a very serious look at

1281
00:51:45,470 --> 00:51:42,900
um uh the scientific Coalition for UAP

1282
00:51:47,690 --> 00:51:45,480
studies and you would think bringing

1283
00:51:49,190 --> 00:51:47,700
that up yes and um there are these

1284
00:51:52,490 --> 00:51:49,200
individuals involved who are major

1285
00:51:55,730 --> 00:51:52,500
players uh for example uh Dr Kevin knuth

1286
00:51:57,890 --> 00:51:55,740
out of um university of um uh Albany I

1287
00:51:59,510 --> 00:51:57,900
think or Arizona anyway it's one of

1288
00:52:01,130 --> 00:51:59,520
those and they're very different but uh

1289
00:52:03,849 --> 00:52:01,140
he is heavily involved in these things

1290
00:52:05,750 --> 00:52:03,859
but you know he wrote uh a published

1291
00:52:08,750 --> 00:52:05,760
peer-reviewed physics paper and quotes

1292
00:52:11,510 --> 00:52:08,760
uh calculating the speed of the Nimitz

1293
00:52:14,030 --> 00:52:11,520
event and then when I'm getting into it

1294
00:52:16,370 --> 00:52:14,040
I find oh that's actually a journal that

1295
00:52:18,829 --> 00:52:16,380
he founded and he's the editor of you

1296
00:52:20,870 --> 00:52:18,839
know and uh yeah so then

1297
00:52:23,690 --> 00:52:20,880
you look in the paper and he's calling

1298
00:52:25,549 --> 00:52:23,700
it a craft over and over I'm looking at

1299
00:52:27,530 --> 00:52:25,559
interviews with him and afterwards he's

1300
00:52:30,109 --> 00:52:27,540
uh you know talking with ballets like

1301
00:52:33,049 --> 00:52:30,119
talking with people about how it can't

1302
00:52:35,809 --> 00:52:33,059
be natural and it is impossible it

1303
00:52:37,370 --> 00:52:35,819
literally said it cannot be

1304
00:52:39,530 --> 00:52:37,380
um valet sitting there next to him being

1305
00:52:41,569 --> 00:52:39,540
like well it could be a plasma but if it

1306
00:52:43,910 --> 00:52:41,579
is we don't know how it operates so so

1307
00:52:45,890 --> 00:52:43,920
these people who are involved at the

1308
00:52:48,470 --> 00:52:45,900
Forefront of the modern taking it

1309
00:52:50,089 --> 00:52:48,480
seriously and making it scientific in my

1310
00:52:52,490 --> 00:52:50,099
experience I'm seeing them exclusively

1311
00:52:54,109 --> 00:52:52,500
use the word craft to describe describe

1312
00:52:56,210 --> 00:52:54,119
the objects which is you know applying

1313
00:52:58,849 --> 00:52:56,220
an interpretation to an observation yes

1314
00:53:00,109 --> 00:52:58,859
uh you know and um you know then there's

1315
00:53:02,210 --> 00:53:00,119
a variety of other things I could cite

1316
00:53:04,970 --> 00:53:02,220
like I sat down with uh he's a board

1317
00:53:06,710 --> 00:53:04,980
member of uh SCU Larry Hancock I believe

1318
00:53:08,930 --> 00:53:06,720
his name is he told me straight up to my

1319
00:53:11,150 --> 00:53:08,940
face these are not natural when I was

1320
00:53:12,890 --> 00:53:11,160
citing to him you know whatever anyway

1321
00:53:14,690 --> 00:53:12,900
so uh what are your thoughts on that

1322
00:53:16,370 --> 00:53:14,700
people who are so prominent and they are

1323
00:53:17,690 --> 00:53:16,380
sort of saying that they're being

1324
00:53:18,770 --> 00:53:17,700
objective and stuff but then when you

1325
00:53:21,290 --> 00:53:18,780
actually talk to them they're saying

1326
00:53:23,150 --> 00:53:21,300
these cannot be natural and that makes

1327
00:53:25,490 --> 00:53:23,160
me just like think that people tune out

1328
00:53:27,109 --> 00:53:25,500
what do you think I okay first of all I

1329
00:53:30,230 --> 00:53:27,119
a lot of the quote unquote prominent

1330
00:53:31,670 --> 00:53:30,240
people okay uh this is the thing these

1331
00:53:34,490 --> 00:53:31,680
are the prominent people and they're

1332
00:53:35,210 --> 00:53:34,500
prominent for for various reasons

1333
00:53:36,530 --> 00:53:35,220
um

1334
00:53:38,030 --> 00:53:36,540
first of all if you look back

1335
00:53:40,130 --> 00:53:38,040
historically

1336
00:53:43,190 --> 00:53:40,140
right there are sort of very much more

1337
00:53:45,470 --> 00:53:43,200
serious sober people uh James McDonald

1338
00:53:50,329 --> 00:53:45,480
one

1339
00:53:52,370 --> 00:53:50,339
um sturuk physicist at Stanford

1340
00:53:53,710 --> 00:53:52,380
um there's another fellow who wrote a

1341
00:53:55,809 --> 00:53:53,720
book called project identification

1342
00:53:58,970 --> 00:53:55,819
Professor Harley

1343
00:54:00,650 --> 00:53:58,980
Rutledge I thank you uh there's the

1344
00:54:07,870 --> 00:54:00,660
people invested in the hestylin lights

1345
00:54:12,770 --> 00:54:10,849
he was on a little while ago

1346
00:54:14,270 --> 00:54:12,780
um you've got this fella who set up the

1347
00:54:17,809 --> 00:54:14,280
program at the University of Wurzburg

1348
00:54:21,109 --> 00:54:17,819
right uh so you've got these sorts of

1349
00:54:23,270 --> 00:54:21,119
people uh Kevin canut I'm I I'm I don't

1350
00:54:25,309 --> 00:54:23,280
really want to

1351
00:54:26,930 --> 00:54:25,319
I can't really I haven't looked at his

1352
00:54:29,690 --> 00:54:26,940
paper very carefully and I'm I'm not

1353
00:54:31,190 --> 00:54:29,700
really qualified to to say much about

1354
00:54:33,410 --> 00:54:31,200
that I want I want to say something

1355
00:54:35,030 --> 00:54:33,420
about that in a second

1356
00:54:36,410 --> 00:54:35,040
um but there are the people that I mean

1357
00:54:37,910 --> 00:54:36,420
look there you can you can talk to like

1358
00:54:39,530 --> 00:54:37,920
you can talk about Gary Nolan for

1359
00:54:41,349 --> 00:54:39,540
example

1360
00:54:44,270 --> 00:54:41,359
um who on the one hand is doing Special

1361
00:54:46,190 --> 00:54:44,280
spectrographic analyzes of of residues

1362
00:54:47,930 --> 00:54:46,200
and traces well at the same time saying

1363
00:54:50,870 --> 00:54:47,940
a lot of other really kind of far out

1364
00:54:52,130 --> 00:54:50,880
things shall we say Okay

1365
00:54:53,870 --> 00:54:52,140
um but these these are the people that

1366
00:54:57,349 --> 00:54:53,880
get the Limelight there are a lot of

1367
00:54:59,270 --> 00:54:57,359
other people who again still reside in

1368
00:55:01,609 --> 00:54:59,280
quote unquote the invisible College

1369
00:55:03,290 --> 00:55:01,619
precisely for this reason and they're

1370
00:55:04,849 --> 00:55:03,300
sort of keeping their heads down they're

1371
00:55:06,410 --> 00:55:04,859
doing their research quietly sometimes

1372
00:55:08,089 --> 00:55:06,420
on the slide maybe sometimes you know

1373
00:55:09,589 --> 00:55:08,099
now they're able to do it more out in

1374
00:55:11,690 --> 00:55:09,599
the open

1375
00:55:14,390 --> 00:55:11,700
um proceeding very carefully

1376
00:55:17,270 --> 00:55:14,400
among these are people trying to trying

1377
00:55:20,450 --> 00:55:17,280
to found trying to ground

1378
00:55:22,130 --> 00:55:20,460
UFOs or ufology or UAP studies as a

1379
00:55:24,470 --> 00:55:22,140
science this is what the group of

1380
00:55:27,410 --> 00:55:24,480
Elimina is working on

1381
00:55:30,770 --> 00:55:27,420
um so they're very very you know

1382
00:55:31,670 --> 00:55:30,780
conservative in in this regard

1383
00:55:33,950 --> 00:55:31,680
um

1384
00:55:34,790 --> 00:55:33,960
one reason what I want to say about all

1385
00:55:42,109 --> 00:55:34,800
that

1386
00:55:44,210 --> 00:55:42,119
a rather clear line between looking at

1387
00:55:46,010 --> 00:55:44,220
uh the the euphological as the the

1388
00:55:48,290 --> 00:55:46,020
collection of all the the stories about

1389
00:55:50,930 --> 00:55:48,300
UFOs and all the various media the

1390
00:55:53,089 --> 00:55:50,940
mythology we might call that right and

1391
00:55:54,430 --> 00:55:53,099
then whatever it is that gives rise to

1392
00:55:57,230 --> 00:55:54,440
those stories

1393
00:56:00,109 --> 00:55:57,240
all right and the question of the being

1394
00:56:02,270 --> 00:56:00,119
of that the ontology of that the nature

1395
00:56:04,309 --> 00:56:02,280
of that is something I'm not really

1396
00:56:06,109 --> 00:56:04,319
qualified to talk about and it's a real

1397
00:56:08,150 --> 00:56:06,119
rabbit hole

1398
00:56:11,030 --> 00:56:08,160
um I'm only one man I make jokes about

1399
00:56:12,049 --> 00:56:11,040
unpaid interns I need more and then I

1400
00:56:13,430 --> 00:56:12,059
could then I could get some unpaid

1401
00:56:15,109 --> 00:56:13,440
interns who studied physics who've

1402
00:56:16,549 --> 00:56:15,119
studied this and that and they could

1403
00:56:19,309 --> 00:56:16,559
look into that for me

1404
00:56:20,809 --> 00:56:19,319
right but as you know if you get talking

1405
00:56:23,930 --> 00:56:20,819
to someone

1406
00:56:24,770 --> 00:56:23,940
um who's rich okay a good example is

1407
00:56:26,930 --> 00:56:24,780
um

1408
00:56:28,130 --> 00:56:26,940
a couple people I know

1409
00:56:30,950 --> 00:56:28,140
uh

1410
00:56:31,670 --> 00:56:30,960
what is it there's one fellow

1411
00:56:34,970 --> 00:56:31,680
um

1412
00:56:37,190 --> 00:56:34,980
who who spoke with

1413
00:56:40,430 --> 00:56:37,200
um oh dear

1414
00:56:43,010 --> 00:56:40,440
hello brain I'm sorry your linguistic

1415
00:56:44,870 --> 00:56:43,020
cortex has gone offline please try again

1416
00:56:48,410 --> 00:56:44,880
later

1417
00:56:50,750 --> 00:56:48,420
um Busan Ali agrama who is a scholar of

1418
00:56:53,930 --> 00:56:50,760
religious studies I believe at the

1419
00:56:57,470 --> 00:56:53,940
University of Chicago I think

1420
00:56:59,990 --> 00:56:57,480
um he presented a paper at a conference

1421
00:57:03,290 --> 00:57:00,000
proportion that we take UAP

1422
00:57:06,109 --> 00:57:03,300
quote-unquote seriously as in their

1423
00:57:08,569 --> 00:57:06,119
ontological sense right as some sort of

1424
00:57:12,170 --> 00:57:08,579
phenomenon whose nature we do not know

1425
00:57:13,849 --> 00:57:12,180
but it is not readily explicable uh the

1426
00:57:16,069 --> 00:57:13,859
psychosocial hypothesis does not do

1427
00:57:17,690 --> 00:57:16,079
justice to it and therefore it presents

1428
00:57:19,849 --> 00:57:17,700
certain interesting questions and

1429
00:57:21,650 --> 00:57:19,859
problems to our Orthodox ways of

1430
00:57:24,410 --> 00:57:21,660
understanding things

1431
00:57:26,030 --> 00:57:24,420
but he's the first to admit that he's a

1432
00:57:28,190 --> 00:57:26,040
UFO newbie

1433
00:57:30,170 --> 00:57:28,200
uh he hadn't really gotten into the

1434
00:57:32,990 --> 00:57:30,180
field until 2015.

1435
00:57:35,870 --> 00:57:33,000
and I can attest in my own

1436
00:57:37,970 --> 00:57:35,880
experience that you know the moment you

1437
00:57:39,589 --> 00:57:37,980
start getting into the field

1438
00:57:41,270 --> 00:57:39,599
why don't you start reading all the

1439
00:57:43,549 --> 00:57:41,280
books

1440
00:57:45,349 --> 00:57:43,559
I think most people experience you know

1441
00:57:46,670 --> 00:57:45,359
you there's a moment of like you're kind

1442
00:57:47,809 --> 00:57:46,680
of persuaded well there's something here

1443
00:57:51,230 --> 00:57:47,819
there's something going on there's

1444
00:57:54,250 --> 00:57:51,240
something Hmm this is very compelling

1445
00:57:57,530 --> 00:57:54,260
and it's only after many more years

1446
00:57:59,390 --> 00:57:57,540
when you see uh you know the sort of

1447
00:58:01,130 --> 00:57:59,400
Relentless debunking that can go on

1448
00:58:02,690 --> 00:58:01,140
they're letting this criticism that goes

1449
00:58:05,690 --> 00:58:02,700
on the kinds of shenanigans that you're

1450
00:58:08,410 --> 00:58:05,700
referring to right uh the kinds of the

1451
00:58:12,109 --> 00:58:08,420
patterns of thinking that go into

1452
00:58:14,870 --> 00:58:12,119
uh the sort of eth exercise hypothesis

1453
00:58:17,030 --> 00:58:14,880
and so on did you become more skeptical

1454
00:58:18,410 --> 00:58:17,040
so I mean if I'm if push comes to shove

1455
00:58:20,450 --> 00:58:18,420
I tend to sort of side with the

1456
00:58:22,549 --> 00:58:20,460
psychosocial hypothesis but that's if

1457
00:58:24,470 --> 00:58:22,559
push comes to shove I'm strictly

1458
00:58:27,109 --> 00:58:24,480
speaking I'm agnostic

1459
00:58:28,849 --> 00:58:27,119
I'm I'm my more adventurous moments I'm

1460
00:58:30,650 --> 00:58:28,859
much more likely to side with valet that

1461
00:58:33,230 --> 00:58:30,660
there's something going on

1462
00:58:35,329 --> 00:58:33,240
God knows what it is but there are some

1463
00:58:38,690 --> 00:58:35,339
very very interesting stories out there

1464
00:58:40,849 --> 00:58:38,700
that are very difficult to explain away

1465
00:58:43,130 --> 00:58:40,859
um but I don't the life of me know

1466
00:58:46,730 --> 00:58:43,140
what's going on and I'm not about to to

1467
00:58:48,770 --> 00:58:46,740
propose an explanation but to me uh that

1468
00:58:51,049 --> 00:58:48,780
UFO newbie for a second

1469
00:58:53,890 --> 00:58:51,059
um having only begun studying in early

1470
00:58:56,809 --> 00:58:53,900
2021 it makes me probably oh well

1471
00:58:58,789 --> 00:58:56,819
however I've got extremely interested so

1472
00:59:00,829 --> 00:58:58,799
yeah that picks that my history as an

1473
00:59:02,150 --> 00:59:00,839
atheist I'm a you know not uh

1474
00:59:03,950 --> 00:59:02,160
fundamentally but you know I'm

1475
00:59:05,930 --> 00:59:03,960
conceptually materialist you know in

1476
00:59:07,309 --> 00:59:05,940
terms of believing the matter you know

1477
00:59:09,109 --> 00:59:07,319
it's not you know have no religion all

1478
00:59:11,150 --> 00:59:09,119
of that stuff no entry like well not you

1479
00:59:12,829 --> 00:59:11,160
know no uh Fascination historically with

1480
00:59:14,450 --> 00:59:12,839
the Paranormal Supernatural zero right

1481
00:59:17,270 --> 00:59:14,460
uh this had nothing to do with my life

1482
00:59:18,710 --> 00:59:17,280
anyway so then I got involved in it and

1483
00:59:22,069 --> 00:59:18,720
uh I just want to say so something that

1484
00:59:24,589 --> 00:59:22,079
made me question it uh from an objective

1485
00:59:28,849 --> 00:59:24,599
like evidentiary perspective if somebody

1486
00:59:32,089 --> 00:59:28,859
told me that they saw a four foot wide

1487
00:59:34,910 --> 00:59:32,099
uh or a 16 foot wide wide ball of light

1488
00:59:35,870 --> 00:59:34,920
fly through the sky

1489
00:59:38,569 --> 00:59:35,880
um

1490
00:59:40,250 --> 00:59:38,579
I would you know question if that was uh

1491
00:59:45,890 --> 00:59:40,260
true I probably have said that it wasn't

1492
00:59:48,530 --> 00:59:45,900
true but then in 2021 I found a very

1493
00:59:50,930 --> 00:59:48,540
prominent uh paper published in 2014 in

1494
00:59:52,670 --> 00:59:50,940
physics physical review letters then

1495
00:59:55,490 --> 00:59:52,680
proves the existence of ball lightning

1496
00:59:58,130 --> 00:59:55,500
they verified it's graphically so so

1497
01:00:01,490 --> 00:59:58,140
what I saw there was that and the object

1498
01:00:02,390 --> 01:00:01,500
was uh 1.1 meters across and uh which is

1499
01:00:04,970 --> 01:00:02,400
like three and a half feet or something

1500
01:00:09,230 --> 01:00:04,980
or four feet uh and then a 16 foot uh

1501
01:00:11,630 --> 01:00:09,240
recorded glow right uh like if those

1502
01:00:14,390 --> 01:00:11,640
objects do exist which they do

1503
01:00:16,370 --> 01:00:14,400
like to what extent are these historic

1504
01:00:18,289 --> 01:00:16,380
descriptions of objects of that nature

1505
01:00:19,730 --> 01:00:18,299
being attributed interpreted through

1506
01:00:21,170 --> 01:00:19,740
these different lenses

1507
01:00:22,609 --> 01:00:21,180
you know it's like borrowing a world

1508
01:00:24,170 --> 01:00:22,619
where the ball light like that don't

1509
01:00:26,150 --> 01:00:24,180
exist I'd be like no there's nothing to

1510
01:00:28,609 --> 01:00:26,160
it it's all psychosocial right in a

1511
01:00:30,289 --> 01:00:28,619
world balls of light like that do exist

1512
01:00:32,150 --> 01:00:30,299
and fly around

1513
01:00:33,530 --> 01:00:32,160
it makes me think like you know people

1514
01:00:34,970 --> 01:00:33,540
describing these luminous objects

1515
01:00:37,069 --> 01:00:34,980
throughout history like maybe there's

1516
01:00:38,690 --> 01:00:37,079
something to it you know what do you

1517
01:00:40,549 --> 01:00:38,700
think of that okay well a couple

1518
01:00:41,809 --> 01:00:40,559
clarifications first when I say agnostic

1519
01:00:45,230 --> 01:00:41,819
I refer to

1520
01:00:46,670 --> 01:00:45,240
um uh with regards to the the reality

1521
01:00:50,870 --> 01:00:46,680
and nature of the of the quote-unquote

1522
01:00:52,970 --> 01:00:50,880
UFO okay I don't I I don't know I don't

1523
01:00:54,410 --> 01:00:52,980
know I've got my interests okay I've got

1524
01:00:56,690 --> 01:00:54,420
my okay

1525
01:00:58,730 --> 01:00:56,700
um I would say actually that that that

1526
01:01:01,849 --> 01:00:58,740
the interpretation of ball lightning and

1527
01:01:04,210 --> 01:01:01,859
other luminous phenomena as uh UAP or

1528
01:01:05,990 --> 01:01:04,220
ghosts or spook lights or whatever is

1529
01:01:07,609 --> 01:01:06,000
consistent with the psychosocial

1530
01:01:10,069 --> 01:01:07,619
hypothesis because it's not not the

1531
01:01:12,289 --> 01:01:10,079
psychosocial hypothesis that various

1532
01:01:14,930 --> 01:01:12,299
phenomena are interpreted the way they

1533
01:01:16,670 --> 01:01:14,940
are because of certain uh cultural

1534
01:01:18,230 --> 01:01:16,680
predilections yeah

1535
01:01:21,530 --> 01:01:18,240
um okay

1536
01:01:23,210 --> 01:01:21,540
um that being said well what then do you

1537
01:01:26,150 --> 01:01:23,220
do with cases such as those that came

1538
01:01:28,970 --> 01:01:26,160
out of France in the 1950s where people

1539
01:01:31,609 --> 01:01:28,980
witnessed a structured craft they were

1540
01:01:35,390 --> 01:01:31,619
metallic they were circular

1541
01:01:36,650 --> 01:01:35,400
um they were silent or sometimes

1542
01:01:38,150 --> 01:01:36,660
accompanied by a whistling sound and

1543
01:01:39,770 --> 01:01:38,160
they had a kind of a glass like cupola

1544
01:01:43,010 --> 01:01:39,780
on the top

1545
01:01:44,390 --> 01:01:43,020
better yet once upon a time there was a

1546
01:01:48,349 --> 01:01:44,400
French farmer doing some work at night

1547
01:01:50,390 --> 01:01:48,359
and his farm was right beside a railroad

1548
01:01:51,650 --> 01:01:50,400
um he saw a bright light on the railway

1549
01:01:53,150 --> 01:01:51,660
tracks he thought well someone must be

1550
01:01:54,410 --> 01:01:53,160
like doing some welding over on the

1551
01:01:55,609 --> 01:01:54,420
tracks but why would they be doing it

1552
01:01:57,890 --> 01:01:55,619
two in the morning

1553
01:02:00,170 --> 01:01:57,900
so he goes over and he sees what looks

1554
01:02:03,049 --> 01:02:00,180
like a large propane tank with a couple

1555
01:02:04,789 --> 01:02:03,059
of humanoid figures uh kind of in

1556
01:02:07,130 --> 01:02:04,799
the light

1557
01:02:09,470 --> 01:02:07,140
Silhouettes

1558
01:02:10,910 --> 01:02:09,480
um and then they they climb inside this

1559
01:02:12,109 --> 01:02:10,920
thing and it and it takes off with a

1560
01:02:13,970 --> 01:02:12,119
whistling sound

1561
01:02:15,770 --> 01:02:13,980
in the morning he goes to inspect it and

1562
01:02:18,309 --> 01:02:15,780
he finds these impressions in the

1563
01:02:20,569 --> 01:02:18,319
railway ties

1564
01:02:22,789 --> 01:02:20,579
who show up and they bring in some

1565
01:02:24,890 --> 01:02:22,799
experts and they have they calculate

1566
01:02:26,809 --> 01:02:24,900
that in order for the railway ties to

1567
01:02:30,530 --> 01:02:26,819
have the Impressions that they have the

1568
01:02:35,450 --> 01:02:33,890
okay and the more stories like that you

1569
01:02:38,270 --> 01:02:35,460
read

1570
01:02:42,230 --> 01:02:38,280
and there are many of them

1571
01:02:44,809 --> 01:02:42,240
the more interesting shall we say the

1572
01:02:47,089 --> 01:02:44,819
phenomenon becomes so the thing is that

1573
01:02:48,710 --> 01:02:47,099
what we have on the one hand is yes

1574
01:02:51,890 --> 01:02:48,720
there's a large psychosocial Dimension

1575
01:02:53,630 --> 01:02:51,900
doubtless that there's a lot of stories

1576
01:02:54,589 --> 01:02:53,640
and rumors and hoaxes and lies and

1577
01:02:56,390 --> 01:02:54,599
misinterpretations and

1578
01:02:58,010 --> 01:02:56,400
misidentifications and so on and so

1579
01:02:59,270 --> 01:02:58,020
forth absolutely

1580
01:03:01,609 --> 01:02:59,280
and this creates a whole kind of

1581
01:03:05,809 --> 01:03:01,619
mythological field if you will a whole

1582
01:03:08,870 --> 01:03:05,819
kind of mindset Collective mindset

1583
01:03:12,410 --> 01:03:08,880
but it's also the case that at the same

1584
01:03:15,170 --> 01:03:12,420
time you have very strange

1585
01:03:16,849 --> 01:03:15,180
inexplicable stories like this

1586
01:03:18,470 --> 01:03:16,859
um and you can point to to others I mean

1587
01:03:21,170 --> 01:03:18,480
they're the Valen Soul case where the

1588
01:03:22,730 --> 01:03:21,180
lavender farmer comes across this thing

1589
01:03:24,230 --> 01:03:22,740
land in his lavender field these little

1590
01:03:27,170 --> 01:03:24,240
guys get out they paralyze him and it

1591
01:03:29,270 --> 01:03:27,180
takes off was it a Fugue State well

1592
01:03:32,089 --> 01:03:29,280
maybe but how many Fugue states are

1593
01:03:33,950 --> 01:03:32,099
there where similar things are recorded

1594
01:03:36,890 --> 01:03:33,960
and so on and so forth what you do with

1595
01:03:38,329 --> 01:03:36,900
the Lonnie Zamora case for example

1596
01:03:40,430 --> 01:03:38,339
I mean there are a lot of explanations

1597
01:03:42,289 --> 01:03:40,440
oh it was a hoax or it was a balloon or

1598
01:03:44,450 --> 01:03:42,299
what was this but none of these add up

1599
01:03:47,930 --> 01:03:44,460
either

1600
01:03:51,410 --> 01:03:47,940
right so there's this residue this the

1601
01:03:53,870 --> 01:03:51,420
these these the residue of stories which

1602
01:03:55,849 --> 01:03:53,880
don't quite fit

1603
01:03:57,109 --> 01:03:55,859
and you just have to sort of get well I

1604
01:03:58,970 --> 01:03:57,119
threw up my hands I go I don't know

1605
01:04:00,829 --> 01:03:58,980
that's interesting I'm going to weave

1606
01:04:02,930 --> 01:04:00,839
them into my poem that's what I'm going

1607
01:04:04,250 --> 01:04:02,940
to do with them but don't ask me to

1608
01:04:05,809 --> 01:04:04,260
explain them but don't ask me to believe

1609
01:04:08,150 --> 01:04:05,819
that they're they're you know visitors

1610
01:04:10,130 --> 01:04:08,160
from Zeta reticulate or the Pleiades

1611
01:04:12,410 --> 01:04:10,140
come to tell us how to live our lives

1612
01:04:13,789 --> 01:04:12,420
and to save us from ourselves either

1613
01:04:17,390 --> 01:04:13,799
because that's not the case I don't

1614
01:04:22,190 --> 01:04:19,609
this is something that Bernardo Castro

1615
01:04:24,589 --> 01:04:22,200
touches on in meaning an absurdity yes

1616
01:04:25,910 --> 01:04:24,599
does he yes that's

1617
01:04:28,190 --> 01:04:25,920
um when I think about sort of the

1618
01:04:30,829 --> 01:04:28,200
progression or evolution of ideas in

1619
01:04:34,190 --> 01:04:30,839
this space I think of that book meaning

1620
01:04:36,170 --> 01:04:34,200
and absurdity by Castro which

1621
01:04:38,210 --> 01:04:36,180
um I've never seen him publicly

1622
01:04:39,770 --> 01:04:38,220
popularized but it's very short and

1623
01:04:41,349 --> 01:04:39,780
totally worth reading and he talks

1624
01:04:45,049 --> 01:04:41,359
basically about

1625
01:04:47,030 --> 01:04:45,059
exploring these experiences which I

1626
01:04:50,329 --> 01:04:47,040
think almost fall under

1627
01:04:53,390 --> 01:04:50,339
like the idea of The Uncanny

1628
01:04:56,210 --> 01:04:53,400
um using alternative Paths of of logic

1629
01:04:59,210 --> 01:04:56,220
and reason than the ones we have

1630
01:05:00,950 --> 01:04:59,220
um in modernity mm-hmm

1631
01:05:02,930 --> 01:05:00,960
um sort of Harkens back to what you were

1632
01:05:04,549 --> 01:05:02,940
talking about earlier about uh how

1633
01:05:07,190 --> 01:05:04,559
history is constructed now and

1634
01:05:08,210 --> 01:05:07,200
interpreted versus how it was

1635
01:05:11,569 --> 01:05:08,220
um

1636
01:05:13,250 --> 01:05:11,579
sort of uh constructed say in the

1637
01:05:15,470 --> 01:05:13,260
medieval period

1638
01:05:19,010 --> 01:05:15,480
um and understanding the uh the

1639
01:05:22,730 --> 01:05:19,020
symbolism that can be embedded uh when

1640
01:05:23,569 --> 01:05:22,740
reading historical accounts but yeah

1641
01:05:25,849 --> 01:05:23,579
um

1642
01:05:29,390 --> 01:05:25,859
I'm I'm very curious uh so we've been

1643
01:05:31,250 --> 01:05:29,400
talking about ufology broadly as a sort

1644
01:05:34,130 --> 01:05:31,260
of witnessed phenomena I'm very

1645
01:05:35,329 --> 01:05:34,140
interested in experience or phenomena uh

1646
01:05:37,730 --> 01:05:35,339
personally very interested in the

1647
01:05:39,530 --> 01:05:37,740
subject of spiritual emergence

1648
01:05:41,450 --> 01:05:39,540
um I've been following Sean esperant

1649
01:05:44,210 --> 01:05:41,460
hargan's development of the EXO studies

1650
01:05:45,950 --> 01:05:44,220
curriculum which sort of tries it takes

1651
01:05:48,170 --> 01:05:45,960
almost a perennialist approach I guess

1652
01:05:51,109 --> 01:05:48,180
in terms of mapping

1653
01:05:53,450 --> 01:05:51,119
um experience or phenomena to this sort

1654
01:05:55,849 --> 01:05:53,460
of history of mystical and numinous

1655
01:05:58,309 --> 01:05:55,859
experiences across multiple Traditions

1656
01:06:00,190 --> 01:05:58,319
both Western and Eastern but I'm very

1657
01:06:03,950 --> 01:06:00,200
curious to hear your thoughts

1658
01:06:07,190 --> 01:06:03,960
on uh experiencers and

1659
01:06:08,750 --> 01:06:07,200
um how this may map to or not map to in

1660
01:06:10,670 --> 01:06:08,760
your opinion

1661
01:06:13,670 --> 01:06:10,680
um the broader kind of mystical

1662
01:06:15,829 --> 01:06:13,680
experience that's captured in religion

1663
01:06:17,510 --> 01:06:15,839
uh throughout history

1664
01:06:22,309 --> 01:06:17,520
yeah that's a that's a that's a very

1665
01:06:25,910 --> 01:06:22,319
very again another Rich vein to mine

1666
01:06:29,750 --> 01:06:27,829
I'm going to say I'm because I'm not a

1667
01:06:32,029 --> 01:06:29,760
March I'm not a dogmatic anything right

1668
01:06:34,069 --> 01:06:32,039
I I tried to sort of like take what I

1669
01:06:36,589 --> 01:06:34,079
can from whatever discourse I can to

1670
01:06:39,109 --> 01:06:36,599
make sense of best things to make things

1671
01:06:41,029 --> 01:06:39,119
make as much sense as I can of things

1672
01:06:42,470 --> 01:06:41,039
um but as the Marxist in me says always

1673
01:06:44,750 --> 01:06:42,480
historicize

1674
01:06:48,289 --> 01:06:44,760
so in that regard

1675
01:06:49,910 --> 01:06:48,299
um what what got me back into UFOs I

1676
01:06:51,410 --> 01:06:49,920
mean because I was interested in them as

1677
01:06:53,510 --> 01:06:51,420
a boy

1678
01:06:56,029 --> 01:06:53,520
um but then as Saint Paul it tells us

1679
01:06:57,710 --> 01:06:56,039
you you put childish things aside

1680
01:06:59,809 --> 01:06:57,720
with childhood

1681
01:07:01,549 --> 01:06:59,819
um was precisely

1682
01:07:03,890 --> 01:07:01,559
um all the stories about in an abduction

1683
01:07:06,890 --> 01:07:03,900
that were coming up in the 80s and 90s

1684
01:07:08,750 --> 01:07:06,900
and what struck me this is not the whole

1685
01:07:12,289 --> 01:07:08,760
story of course but what struck me was

1686
01:07:13,930 --> 01:07:12,299
that many not all but many of the

1687
01:07:17,089 --> 01:07:13,940
stories were retrieved under hypnosis

1688
01:07:18,589 --> 01:07:17,099
and many of them were from women uh

1689
01:07:21,289 --> 01:07:18,599
talking about being subjected to

1690
01:07:23,089 --> 01:07:21,299
gynecological experiments and other

1691
01:07:26,750 --> 01:07:23,099
genetical manipulation

1692
01:07:29,930 --> 01:07:26,760
and this was all during the time when

1693
01:07:33,950 --> 01:07:29,940
you had Dolly the the Clone sheep coming

1694
01:07:36,589 --> 01:07:33,960
up on the scene you had uh advances in

1695
01:07:38,930 --> 01:07:36,599
in fertility treatments such as IVF and

1696
01:07:40,789 --> 01:07:38,940
you had the Human Genome Project so

1697
01:07:42,770 --> 01:07:40,799
there was a great anxiety

1698
01:07:44,930 --> 01:07:42,780
a great concern a great interest in

1699
01:07:49,490 --> 01:07:44,940
things genetic

1700
01:07:52,370 --> 01:07:49,500
as well uh women being you know what in

1701
01:07:54,529 --> 01:07:52,380
um at a time when IVF was coming up and

1702
01:07:56,870 --> 01:07:54,539
cloning was coming up I wonder why women

1703
01:07:59,750 --> 01:07:56,880
would feel anxious and and and and and

1704
01:08:02,329 --> 01:07:59,760
and and under hypnosis have a kind of

1705
01:08:05,049 --> 01:08:02,339
waking dream about being subjected to

1706
01:08:09,049 --> 01:08:05,059
gynecological experiments by heartless

1707
01:08:12,170 --> 01:08:09,059
uh feelingless uh scientists wonderful

1708
01:08:15,289 --> 01:08:12,180
you know it made too much sense and I'm

1709
01:08:19,249 --> 01:08:17,269
um so that so so in the historically so

1710
01:08:21,289 --> 01:08:19,259
you put the experience right into the

1711
01:08:23,570 --> 01:08:21,299
historical context

1712
01:08:26,390 --> 01:08:23,580
and it makes a lot of sense

1713
01:08:29,090 --> 01:08:26,400
right that's why I'm very

1714
01:08:31,309 --> 01:08:29,100
um skeptical but

1715
01:08:32,749 --> 01:08:31,319
uh cautious when it comes to any sort of

1716
01:08:35,030 --> 01:08:32,759
perennialism

1717
01:08:37,430 --> 01:08:35,040
right I'll read Jung for the fun of it

1718
01:08:38,329 --> 01:08:37,440
but I don't buy the archetypes

1719
01:08:41,390 --> 01:08:38,339
sure

1720
01:08:42,890 --> 01:08:41,400
um I'll read I'll read um Levy Strauss

1721
01:08:44,689 --> 01:08:42,900
to get a sense of structuralist

1722
01:08:47,689 --> 01:08:44,699
methodology but I don't believe in any

1723
01:08:49,550 --> 01:08:47,699
sort of universals in that regard human

1724
01:08:52,010 --> 01:08:49,560
beings are first and foremost temporal

1725
01:08:53,689 --> 01:08:52,020
creatures we are very local in that

1726
01:08:55,309 --> 01:08:53,699
regard

1727
01:08:57,050 --> 01:08:55,319
um

1728
01:08:58,910 --> 01:08:57,060
however much there is a kind of a

1729
01:09:00,890 --> 01:08:58,920
material universality we have to eat we

1730
01:09:03,050 --> 01:09:00,900
have to drink we're we're gregarious

1731
01:09:04,849 --> 01:09:03,060
creatures we're linguistic creatures but

1732
01:09:06,650 --> 01:09:04,859
that's very abstract

1733
01:09:09,650 --> 01:09:06,660
these these universalities right there's

1734
01:09:13,189 --> 01:09:09,660
no content there per se

1735
01:09:14,930 --> 01:09:13,199
um so in that regard my first impulse is

1736
01:09:16,849 --> 01:09:14,940
to always historicize

1737
01:09:19,930 --> 01:09:16,859
okay let's look at the content of the

1738
01:09:22,789 --> 01:09:19,940
experience and and and and ask how that

1739
01:09:24,590 --> 01:09:22,799
resonates with uh the context of the

1740
01:09:26,570 --> 01:09:24,600
moment what's going on in that person's

1741
01:09:29,930 --> 01:09:26,580
life what's going on that person's

1742
01:09:33,050 --> 01:09:29,940
quote-unquote World context culture

1743
01:09:35,329 --> 01:09:33,060
that being said right a lot of religious

1744
01:09:37,849 --> 01:09:35,339
study Scholars will be you know the

1745
01:09:41,030 --> 01:09:37,859
first to say yeah you know this is a

1746
01:09:42,590 --> 01:09:41,040
kind of mystical religious experience

1747
01:09:45,470 --> 01:09:42,600
um but again the experience are there's

1748
01:09:47,209 --> 01:09:45,480
so many kinds of experience

1749
01:09:48,769 --> 01:09:47,219
that that fall into that in that

1750
01:09:53,150 --> 01:09:48,779
category

1751
01:09:55,430 --> 01:09:53,160
um terrifying uh beautific and so on uh

1752
01:09:58,010 --> 01:09:55,440
do we include things like channeling for

1753
01:10:00,169 --> 01:09:58,020
example uh would we include

1754
01:10:04,910 --> 01:10:00,179
um the experiences reported by the

1755
01:10:07,850 --> 01:10:05,630
um

1756
01:10:10,490 --> 01:10:07,860
how do we distinguish them from and this

1757
01:10:14,510 --> 01:10:10,500
is where things get interesting again uh

1758
01:10:18,110 --> 01:10:14,520
uh near-death experience uh Angelic and

1759
01:10:20,510 --> 01:10:18,120
demonic encounters uh hauntings right

1760
01:10:25,250 --> 01:10:20,520
and so on because these all tend to Bear

1761
01:10:28,189 --> 01:10:25,260
the same character right that's the same

1762
01:10:30,530 --> 01:10:28,199
structure for lack of a better word

1763
01:10:32,450 --> 01:10:30,540
so again I'm I'm of two minds I don't

1764
01:10:35,209 --> 01:10:32,460
want to shut anything down

1765
01:10:37,070 --> 01:10:35,219
my own materialistic but but not in the

1766
01:10:39,709 --> 01:10:37,080
sense of physical materialism but but

1767
01:10:41,630 --> 01:10:39,719
cultural materialism

1768
01:10:43,729 --> 01:10:41,640
um proclivities say okay let's

1769
01:10:45,290 --> 01:10:43,739
historicize let's look at it in in the

1770
01:10:47,149 --> 01:10:45,300
context of the culture the life of that

1771
01:10:48,649 --> 01:10:47,159
person and see if we can't make sense of

1772
01:10:50,930 --> 01:10:48,659
it there

1773
01:10:53,030 --> 01:10:50,940
um but it is the case that human beings

1774
01:10:56,330 --> 01:10:53,040
are given to quote unquote mystical

1775
01:10:59,030 --> 01:10:56,340
experiences uh if you want to make a

1776
01:11:01,970 --> 01:10:59,040
generalization I I don't know if there's

1777
01:11:04,430 --> 01:11:01,980
a culture that's not given to that but

1778
01:11:06,470 --> 01:11:04,440
you know a lot of cultures they they

1779
01:11:08,090 --> 01:11:06,480
seek it out on purpose and they do it by

1780
01:11:10,250 --> 01:11:08,100
means of

1781
01:11:11,990 --> 01:11:10,260
um either uh by invoking all sorts of

1782
01:11:15,470 --> 01:11:12,000
extreme physical States either through

1783
01:11:18,050 --> 01:11:15,480
sleep deprivation through fasting

1784
01:11:20,149 --> 01:11:18,060
um through taking enthiogens

1785
01:11:22,570 --> 01:11:20,159
right they seek it out but what's

1786
01:11:24,950 --> 01:11:22,580
interesting in our puritanical

1787
01:11:26,689 --> 01:11:24,960
post-christian culture is how these

1788
01:11:29,450 --> 01:11:26,699
experiences are quote unquote

1789
01:11:31,010 --> 01:11:29,460
spontaneous and there you can make a

1790
01:11:34,550 --> 01:11:31,020
very good argument to say well you know

1791
01:11:37,070 --> 01:11:34,560
in cultures that seek it out uh it has a

1792
01:11:39,410 --> 01:11:37,080
place and it's understood and it makes

1793
01:11:42,470 --> 01:11:39,420
sense and it's no biggie and it's only

1794
01:11:44,750 --> 01:11:42,480
in cultures that suppress the antiogenic

1795
01:11:47,270 --> 01:11:44,760
experience that you have this sort of

1796
01:11:50,149 --> 01:11:47,280
spontaneous eruption of these deeply

1797
01:11:53,149 --> 01:11:50,159
disturbing experiences

1798
01:11:56,709 --> 01:11:53,159
um that then cry out to be made sense of

1799
01:11:59,030 --> 01:11:56,719
oh my God I love this answer so much

1800
01:12:00,830 --> 01:11:59,040
I think I think John Mack made this

1801
01:12:03,229 --> 01:12:00,840
remark I'm I've heard other people make

1802
01:12:04,490 --> 01:12:03,239
this this observation

1803
01:12:06,830 --> 01:12:04,500
um

1804
01:12:08,990 --> 01:12:06,840
and so the thing is this this is why in

1805
01:12:10,729 --> 01:12:09,000
to speak I don't like this expression

1806
01:12:13,209 --> 01:12:10,739
but indigenous

1807
01:12:15,770 --> 01:12:13,219
cultures there's no such a big thing

1808
01:12:18,410 --> 01:12:15,780
made about you know non-human

1809
01:12:20,270 --> 01:12:18,420
intelligences the ancestors are with us

1810
01:12:21,890 --> 01:12:20,280
all the time there are some cultures

1811
01:12:23,810 --> 01:12:21,900
that keep the bones of their ancestors

1812
01:12:25,610 --> 01:12:23,820
in their damn living room right well

1813
01:12:28,490 --> 01:12:25,620
there's Uncle Joe

1814
01:12:31,189 --> 01:12:28,500
um you know at Halloween right we we we

1815
01:12:33,709 --> 01:12:31,199
we honor the ancestors the the door

1816
01:12:36,590 --> 01:12:33,719
Between Worlds opens up

1817
01:12:38,090 --> 01:12:36,600
um in lots of cultures you know you you

1818
01:12:39,830 --> 01:12:38,100
know I tell you

1819
01:12:42,590 --> 01:12:39,840
um among some indigenous peoples they

1820
01:12:43,910 --> 01:12:42,600
look at the Spanish as as not being

1821
01:12:45,590 --> 01:12:43,920
human beings

1822
01:12:47,689 --> 01:12:45,600
because they didn't have souls because

1823
01:12:50,810 --> 01:12:47,699
they hadn't gone through

1824
01:12:52,189 --> 01:12:50,820
these extreme enthiogenic

1825
01:12:54,050 --> 01:12:52,199
um experience

1826
01:12:57,229 --> 01:12:54,060
to become a become a full member of the

1827
01:12:59,570 --> 01:12:57,239
tribe you had to go through this kind of

1828
01:13:01,189 --> 01:12:59,580
experience and only then

1829
01:13:02,750 --> 01:13:01,199
would you understand what was what was

1830
01:13:04,669 --> 01:13:02,760
going on what was all about would you

1831
01:13:06,709 --> 01:13:04,679
have plugged into reality

1832
01:13:07,490 --> 01:13:06,719
but the but the the Spanish hadn't done

1833
01:13:09,950 --> 01:13:07,500
that

1834
01:13:12,470 --> 01:13:09,960
they didn't have souls

1835
01:13:14,090 --> 01:13:12,480
okay so I think that that's that'd be

1836
01:13:15,350 --> 01:13:14,100
sort of my

1837
01:13:16,669 --> 01:13:15,360
I think

1838
01:13:18,470 --> 01:13:16,679
perhaps what's going on here is that

1839
01:13:19,850 --> 01:13:18,480
we're getting something that we need but

1840
01:13:23,209 --> 01:13:19,860
again right that's very culturally

1841
01:13:24,770 --> 01:13:23,219
specific very very historically specific

1842
01:13:26,510 --> 01:13:24,780
um

1843
01:13:27,649 --> 01:13:26,520
more than that I can't say there are a

1844
01:13:29,870 --> 01:13:27,659
lot of people that looked into a lot

1845
01:13:32,510 --> 01:13:29,880
more deeper than I have among those some

1846
01:13:34,310 --> 01:13:32,520
of them that you've mentioned and I'm

1847
01:13:37,370 --> 01:13:34,320
sure they would find grounds to disagree

1848
01:13:38,689 --> 01:13:37,380
with me and grounds to agree with me

1849
01:13:40,010 --> 01:13:38,699
um but it is the case that among a lot

1850
01:13:41,630 --> 01:13:40,020
of religious studies Scholars a lot of

1851
01:13:43,310 --> 01:13:41,640
them will actually you know

1852
01:13:45,709 --> 01:13:43,320
finger this as a kind of mystical

1853
01:13:47,149 --> 01:13:45,719
experience and they can you know again

1854
01:13:48,830 --> 01:13:47,159
to get back to the earliest part of our

1855
01:13:52,130 --> 01:13:48,840
conversation

1856
01:13:54,470 --> 01:13:52,140
um and this point is made by Diana Heath

1857
01:13:57,229 --> 01:13:54,480
um if you actually go back to the

1858
01:14:00,490 --> 01:13:57,239
Diaries of Teresa of Avila

1859
01:14:02,630 --> 01:14:00,500
who had a very famous encounter

1860
01:14:05,090 --> 01:14:02,640
depicted in the

1861
01:14:07,790 --> 01:14:05,100
very famous sculpture

1862
01:14:10,630 --> 01:14:07,800
um when you read the diary

1863
01:14:13,310 --> 01:14:10,640
uh which is not couched in the religious

1864
01:14:16,430 --> 01:14:13,320
uh narrative conventions of the day it's

1865
01:14:18,709 --> 01:14:16,440
it's very very modern in this regard it

1866
01:14:20,990 --> 01:14:18,719
sure sounds a lot like the kind of

1867
01:14:23,810 --> 01:14:21,000
things that experiencers go through a

1868
01:14:26,990 --> 01:14:23,820
diminutive actual physical she calls it

1869
01:14:28,910 --> 01:14:27,000
it's carne flesh it's not an angel it's

1870
01:14:31,310 --> 01:14:28,920
not a demon it's a fleshly thing this

1871
01:14:33,050 --> 01:14:31,320
little diminutive dude uh with this

1872
01:14:34,550 --> 01:14:33,060
little little light in things and then

1873
01:14:36,169 --> 01:14:34,560
there are things that very interesting

1874
01:14:37,610 --> 01:14:36,179
if you've got a really hard because the

1875
01:14:40,669 --> 01:14:37,620
thing is it's not couched in the

1876
01:14:42,470 --> 01:14:40,679
language of the time right right

1877
01:14:43,490 --> 01:14:42,480
um because it's the diary and the and

1878
01:14:46,370 --> 01:14:43,500
see

1879
01:14:48,350 --> 01:14:46,380
again but there's the philological labor

1880
01:14:50,090 --> 01:14:48,360
that's got to be done you've got to

1881
01:14:52,729 --> 01:14:50,100
understand the way that people

1882
01:14:54,649 --> 01:14:52,739
articulated themselves in the discourses

1883
01:14:57,410 --> 01:14:54,659
available to them at the time

1884
01:15:01,070 --> 01:14:57,420
right and we can't just just transpose

1885
01:15:04,910 --> 01:15:01,080
our ways of speaking and talking onto

1886
01:15:06,050 --> 01:15:04,920
um non-european cultures or cultures in

1887
01:15:08,689 --> 01:15:06,060
the distant past

1888
01:15:10,490 --> 01:15:08,699
sometimes you can right I mean Augustine

1889
01:15:11,590 --> 01:15:10,500
was of what Saint Augustine was one of

1890
01:15:13,910 --> 01:15:11,600
the first people to write confessions

1891
01:15:16,250 --> 01:15:13,920
much more modern

1892
01:15:18,470 --> 01:15:16,260
right but even then you know you've got

1893
01:15:19,610 --> 01:15:18,480
to look into the narrative conventions

1894
01:15:21,709 --> 01:15:19,620
so

1895
01:15:23,209 --> 01:15:21,719
yes and no I I always prefer more

1896
01:15:26,030 --> 01:15:23,219
fine-grained approach

1897
01:15:28,970 --> 01:15:26,040
let's look into here and now the context

1898
01:15:31,370 --> 01:15:28,980
the person the the uh the case study if

1899
01:15:34,610 --> 01:15:31,380
you will and see what we can get from

1900
01:15:36,470 --> 01:15:34,620
there but I but I but I do like Leia

1901
01:15:38,050 --> 01:15:36,480
like you um like this idea that it's

1902
01:15:40,430 --> 01:15:38,060
it's a compensation

1903
01:15:42,110 --> 01:15:40,440
we have these deeply disturbing

1904
01:15:45,130 --> 01:15:42,120
experiences because we don't have a

1905
01:15:47,630 --> 01:15:45,140
place for it in our culture or if you do

1906
01:15:49,310 --> 01:15:47,640
like for example among sort of the

1907
01:15:52,430 --> 01:15:49,320
fundamentalist Christians in our society

1908
01:15:55,370 --> 01:15:52,440
it's always interpreted as demonic right

1909
01:15:57,470 --> 01:15:55,380
there is a whole Christian ufology but

1910
01:15:59,510 --> 01:15:57,480
the the euphenots are they're demons and

1911
01:16:01,669 --> 01:15:59,520
it's a sign of the end times and so on

1912
01:16:03,470 --> 01:16:01,679
and so forth well I think this is a

1913
01:16:06,050 --> 01:16:03,480
really interesting point and it speaks

1914
01:16:08,090 --> 01:16:06,060
to my own experience um as I mentioned I

1915
01:16:10,130 --> 01:16:08,100
just didn't have any exposure

1916
01:16:12,530 --> 01:16:10,140
involvement with any of these subjects

1917
01:16:14,870 --> 01:16:12,540
until very recently but I had

1918
01:16:17,990 --> 01:16:14,880
experiences historically that now having

1919
01:16:20,090 --> 01:16:18,000
interacted with these communities I

1920
01:16:21,169 --> 01:16:20,100
realized people interpret in ways that

1921
01:16:22,850 --> 01:16:21,179
are very different from the way I

1922
01:16:25,250 --> 01:16:22,860
interpreted them for example when I was

1923
01:16:26,990 --> 01:16:25,260
young and still do I have experiences

1924
01:16:28,430 --> 01:16:27,000
with sleep paralysis or at least a form

1925
01:16:31,130 --> 01:16:28,440
of it where sometimes when I woke up

1926
01:16:32,450 --> 01:16:31,140
wake up I will see so it is an unusual

1927
01:16:33,649 --> 01:16:32,460
form but I'll see something that isn't

1928
01:16:35,630 --> 01:16:33,659
there for maybe five to ten seconds

1929
01:16:38,330 --> 01:16:35,640
while having mobility and then it

1930
01:16:41,209 --> 01:16:38,340
suddenly disappears and so when you I

1931
01:16:43,010 --> 01:16:41,219
see deep Prasad talk about how he had he

1932
01:16:44,990 --> 01:16:43,020
believes in UFOs and all this stuff but

1933
01:16:46,790 --> 01:16:45,000
he believes in them because he had a nap

1934
01:16:48,410 --> 01:16:46,800
in his bed and he woke up and for five

1935
01:16:50,930 --> 01:16:48,420
to ten seconds he saw an alien and then

1936
01:16:53,330 --> 01:16:50,940
disappeared and like so to him that

1937
01:16:55,250 --> 01:16:53,340
proves that aliens are real when I was

1938
01:16:56,870 --> 01:16:55,260
13 or 14 when I had an experience of

1939
01:16:58,610 --> 01:16:56,880
seeing like a sphere in my room and then

1940
01:17:00,350 --> 01:16:58,620
I looked down and turn on light to look

1941
01:17:02,270 --> 01:17:00,360
back it's completely gone I go to run

1942
01:17:03,649 --> 01:17:02,280
tutor and I type into Google I saw

1943
01:17:05,090 --> 01:17:03,659
something when I woke up and then I just

1944
01:17:06,770 --> 01:17:05,100
see a ton of peer-reviewed papers about

1945
01:17:08,330 --> 01:17:06,780
like sleep studies saying and it's the

1946
01:17:10,610 --> 01:17:08,340
type of sleep paralysis or whatever and

1947
01:17:11,990 --> 01:17:10,620
I never thought about it again ever and

1948
01:17:13,550 --> 01:17:12,000
there are people I've met who have their

1949
01:17:17,930 --> 01:17:13,560
entire lives based around an experience

1950
01:17:20,450 --> 01:17:17,940
of that nature so yeah yeah look the

1951
01:17:21,950 --> 01:17:20,460
thing is that look this story again this

1952
01:17:23,270 --> 01:17:21,960
is what interested me about about the

1953
01:17:26,630 --> 01:17:23,280
whole discourse is that on the one hand

1954
01:17:29,750 --> 01:17:26,640
it's marginal it's precisely not taken

1955
01:17:32,689 --> 01:17:29,760
seriously it's the stuff of of bad

1956
01:17:34,310 --> 01:17:32,699
science fiction of B movies of crazy

1957
01:17:37,250 --> 01:17:34,320
people

1958
01:17:39,410 --> 01:17:37,260
um of of nerds and Geeks

1959
01:17:41,990 --> 01:17:39,420
um but at the same time

1960
01:17:45,110 --> 01:17:42,000
it's very oh oh

1961
01:17:47,870 --> 01:17:45,120
um at the same time it speaks directly

1962
01:17:50,450 --> 01:17:47,880
to things that are going on at the heart

1963
01:17:52,010 --> 01:17:50,460
of society at the center of society and

1964
01:17:55,310 --> 01:17:52,020
that was ultimately again the argument

1965
01:17:56,689 --> 01:17:55,320
about about the raelians I mean one way

1966
01:17:58,250 --> 01:17:56,699
of looking at the papers ask the

1967
01:18:00,470 --> 01:17:58,260
question well why on Earth would someone

1968
01:18:02,510 --> 01:18:00,480
believe something so kooky

1969
01:18:05,330 --> 01:18:02,520
well I'll tell you why because it's

1970
01:18:10,130 --> 01:18:05,340
perfectly in line with the ideology that

1971
01:18:12,709 --> 01:18:10,140
governs uh modern culture that's why

1972
01:18:16,550 --> 01:18:12,719
um you know I mean is can anyone at this

1973
01:18:20,030 --> 01:18:16,560
point in the age of Elon Musk deny that

1974
01:18:22,130 --> 01:18:20,040
technology is the reigning ideology of

1975
01:18:25,790 --> 01:18:22,140
the so-called Advanced societies as

1976
01:18:27,470 --> 01:18:25,800
Jurgen habermas pointed out in the 1970s

1977
01:18:29,810 --> 01:18:27,480
um I don't think so

1978
01:18:31,250 --> 01:18:29,820
right when I'm teaching young people one

1979
01:18:34,070 --> 01:18:31,260
thing I'll give them sometimes a little

1980
01:18:36,290 --> 01:18:34,080
article about how our history is in

1981
01:18:37,729 --> 01:18:36,300
danger of Disappearing because the the

1982
01:18:40,430 --> 01:18:37,739
media

1983
01:18:41,810 --> 01:18:40,440
um are becoming obsolete right so no we

1984
01:18:43,189 --> 01:18:41,820
know what a three and a half inch floppy

1985
01:18:45,290 --> 01:18:43,199
is we know what a five and a half inch

1986
01:18:46,729 --> 01:18:45,300
flop is so the thing is the media become

1987
01:18:49,430 --> 01:18:46,739
Obsolete and the software read them

1988
01:18:51,050 --> 01:18:49,440
become Obsolete and I asked them why do

1989
01:18:53,689 --> 01:18:51,060
these things change

1990
01:18:57,890 --> 01:18:53,699
progress sir as if it's some sort of

1991
01:19:00,410 --> 01:18:57,900
natural process no investment that's why

1992
01:19:02,870 --> 01:19:00,420
it changes someone's got money to make

1993
01:19:04,490 --> 01:19:02,880
that's why it changes

1994
01:19:05,030 --> 01:19:04,500
right

1995
01:19:07,130 --> 01:19:05,040
um

1996
01:19:08,870 --> 01:19:07,140
and this this is what I'm all this is

1997
01:19:11,149 --> 01:19:08,880
what I'm all about when it comes to the

1998
01:19:14,090 --> 01:19:11,159
to the whole UFO is that it functions

1999
01:19:16,850 --> 01:19:14,100
ideologically the moment we take a

2000
01:19:20,209 --> 01:19:16,860
cultural formation is a as a aspect of

2001
01:19:23,030 --> 01:19:20,219
nature progress just happens that is

2002
01:19:25,430 --> 01:19:23,040
ideology because it just serves people

2003
01:19:26,750 --> 01:19:25,440
such as Elon Musk and others who always

2004
01:19:28,850 --> 01:19:26,760
want to like change things give us the

2005
01:19:31,010 --> 01:19:28,860
newest little Gadget and so on and so

2006
01:19:33,110 --> 01:19:31,020
forth it makes it natural this is the

2007
01:19:35,149 --> 01:19:33,120
problem with seti there aren't going to

2008
01:19:37,310 --> 01:19:35,159
be to imagine as you said as you said

2009
01:19:39,410 --> 01:19:37,320
Nick like we see ourselves we're looking

2010
01:19:40,430 --> 01:19:39,420
for ourselves but which self are we

2011
01:19:45,050 --> 01:19:40,440
looking for

2012
01:19:46,729 --> 01:19:45,060
human being

2013
01:19:48,050 --> 01:19:46,739
that which occupies the so-called

2014
01:19:50,090 --> 01:19:48,060
Advanced societies what used to be

2015
01:19:51,890 --> 01:19:50,100
called the first world what about the

2016
01:19:54,350 --> 01:19:51,900
dudes living up in the Andes who want

2017
01:19:56,030 --> 01:19:54,360
nothing to do with this nonsense that's

2018
01:19:58,669 --> 01:19:56,040
such a good point all right who look at

2019
01:20:00,790 --> 01:19:58,679
us as a little brother who's gone wrong

2020
01:20:03,709 --> 01:20:00,800
they call us little brother

2021
01:20:06,290 --> 01:20:03,719
right uh what about Inuit and the north

2022
01:20:08,990 --> 01:20:06,300
For Whom the Earth is off its axis

2023
01:20:10,370 --> 01:20:09,000
and so on and so forth right and this is

2024
01:20:13,910 --> 01:20:10,380
that this is the whole problem with the

2025
01:20:17,330 --> 01:20:13,920
euphological discourse is it takes one

2026
01:20:19,430 --> 01:20:17,340
one instance of human culture which is

2027
01:20:21,830 --> 01:20:19,440
very recent and very local historically

2028
01:20:24,229 --> 01:20:21,840
in spatio-temporally as the norm

2029
01:20:26,330 --> 01:20:24,239
throughout the Universe of all

2030
01:20:28,729 --> 01:20:26,340
intelligent life

2031
01:20:30,950 --> 01:20:28,739
and that doesn't tell us anything about

2032
01:20:34,490 --> 01:20:30,960
anything off the Earth but it tells us

2033
01:20:36,350 --> 01:20:34,500
everything about our own self-obsessed

2034
01:20:38,510 --> 01:20:36,360
humorous

2035
01:20:40,070 --> 01:20:38,520
and precisely the problem that and so

2036
01:20:43,370 --> 01:20:40,080
there there's where the UFO mythology

2037
01:20:45,290 --> 01:20:43,380
plugs into uh the the climate crisis the

2038
01:20:48,290 --> 01:20:45,300
ecological crisis and everything is it

2039
01:20:50,390 --> 01:20:48,300
precisely this blindness to ourselves

2040
01:20:52,250 --> 01:20:50,400
mm-hmm there's the problem

2041
01:20:54,770 --> 01:20:52,260
and until we can sort of see ourselves

2042
01:20:56,570 --> 01:20:54,780
for what we are and see technology for

2043
01:20:58,189 --> 01:20:56,580
what it is

2044
01:21:00,590 --> 01:20:58,199
only then can we begin to sort of like

2045
01:21:04,070 --> 01:21:00,600
hope to chart a course away from or

2046
01:21:08,590 --> 01:21:05,590
I think

2047
01:21:11,209 --> 01:21:08,600
I would argue

2048
01:21:14,450 --> 01:21:11,219
a few points that uh kind of illustrate

2049
01:21:15,649 --> 01:21:14,460
my issues with the Fermi Paradox but

2050
01:21:16,910 --> 01:21:15,659
kind of calling back to what we were

2051
01:21:19,370 --> 01:21:16,920
talking about yeah we are looking for

2052
01:21:21,850 --> 01:21:19,380
we're looking for the white colonizers

2053
01:21:24,950 --> 01:21:21,860
in space essentially oh boy you said it

2054
01:21:26,570 --> 01:21:24,960
yeah sure well I mean look I mean you

2055
01:21:28,550 --> 01:21:26,580
know look look at the people who want to

2056
01:21:32,030 --> 01:21:28,560
you know we look at the the the the

2057
01:21:33,290 --> 01:21:32,040
solar system as ours to colonize not

2058
01:21:36,410 --> 01:21:33,300
well I'm sorry

2059
01:21:37,550 --> 01:21:36,420
we've we've we've had that story

2060
01:21:39,229 --> 01:21:37,560
um I don't think we're necessarily going

2061
01:21:40,910 --> 01:21:39,239
to find other other people out on the on

2062
01:21:42,950 --> 01:21:40,920
the planet but but the whole idea that

2063
01:21:45,950 --> 01:21:42,960
nature is there for us to exploit as we

2064
01:21:47,270 --> 01:21:45,960
see fit is coming back and biting it's

2065
01:21:49,850 --> 01:21:47,280
not this but it's not going to bite Us

2066
01:21:53,390 --> 01:21:49,860
in the ass it's been knowing us in the

2067
01:21:55,430 --> 01:21:53,400
ass for decades right and and for some

2068
01:21:57,530 --> 01:21:55,440
reason some people don't feel that I

2069
01:22:00,649 --> 01:21:57,540
don't know why or they're just ignoring

2070
01:22:03,169 --> 01:22:00,659
it they're just you know repressing it

2071
01:22:06,290 --> 01:22:03,179
um not how things work that's not how

2072
01:22:08,450 --> 01:22:06,300
things work the um

2073
01:22:10,729 --> 01:22:08,460
the American Port uh Charles Olson was

2074
01:22:12,410 --> 01:22:10,739
so happy when when we went to the moon

2075
01:22:14,990 --> 01:22:12,420
and found it was just a horrible cold

2076
01:22:16,910 --> 01:22:15,000
airless lifeless place

2077
01:22:18,649 --> 01:22:16,920
because it made us hopefully uh

2078
01:22:21,890 --> 01:22:18,659
appreciate what we've got here more

2079
01:22:24,709 --> 01:22:21,900
that was his hope in the 60s

2080
01:22:27,350 --> 01:22:24,719
um but you know there's still hope I

2081
01:22:28,030 --> 01:22:27,360
will still I will hope until The Bitter

2082
01:22:30,590 --> 01:22:28,040
End

2083
01:22:32,990 --> 01:22:30,600
how would you situate something like the

2084
01:22:35,330 --> 01:22:33,000
skinwalker Saga and the fact that it's

2085
01:22:36,530 --> 01:22:35,340
taken up so readily by conservative

2086
01:22:38,330 --> 01:22:36,540
white men

2087
01:22:42,590 --> 01:22:38,340
ah

2088
01:22:44,870 --> 01:22:42,600
not just conservative white men the the

2089
01:22:47,090 --> 01:22:44,880
present owner as and as you know is a

2090
01:22:48,649 --> 01:22:47,100
Mormon yeah

2091
01:22:51,709 --> 01:22:48,659
um this is this is interesting in itself

2092
01:22:54,050 --> 01:22:51,719
and isn't uh Travis Walker a Mormon

2093
01:22:56,890 --> 01:22:54,060
okay I may have read that somewhere I

2094
01:23:02,149 --> 01:22:59,930
I think is in line with science uh with

2095
01:23:03,890 --> 01:23:02,159
a Mormonism if I'm not mistaken

2096
01:23:05,030 --> 01:23:03,900
something like that it's very very

2097
01:23:08,270 --> 01:23:05,040
interesting

2098
01:23:10,430 --> 01:23:08,280
you know I I mean I don't know

2099
01:23:15,590 --> 01:23:12,290
there is I mean you brought up the white

2100
01:23:17,750 --> 01:23:15,600
colonizer and you know the the Explorer

2101
01:23:20,570 --> 01:23:17,760
right uh the white man out there

2102
01:23:21,770 --> 01:23:20,580
exploring new territories and in a way

2103
01:23:24,530 --> 01:23:21,780
isn't that kind of what's going on at

2104
01:23:25,790 --> 01:23:24,540
the skin walker Ranch there's boy you

2105
01:23:26,990 --> 01:23:25,800
know but then of course the moment you

2106
01:23:28,010 --> 01:23:27,000
mentioned that then you got to bring in

2107
01:23:29,390 --> 01:23:28,020
the notion well you know it is the

2108
01:23:31,729 --> 01:23:29,400
Skinwalker Ranch and there's all this

2109
01:23:32,750 --> 01:23:31,739
talk about you know native curses and

2110
01:23:34,790 --> 01:23:32,760
stuff and then you want to start

2111
01:23:36,649 --> 01:23:34,800
thinking about well what's the

2112
01:23:40,010 --> 01:23:36,659
colonialist dimension of that whole

2113
01:23:41,209 --> 01:23:40,020
story hmm I want I don't know but it

2114
01:23:43,729 --> 01:23:41,219
just strikes me you know there's nothing

2115
01:23:45,770 --> 01:23:43,739
to think about I've got an idea you've

2116
01:23:47,510 --> 01:23:45,780
got an idea what's your idea Campbell

2117
01:23:49,669 --> 01:23:47,520
well I wasn't going to say it but yeah

2118
01:23:52,250 --> 01:23:49,679
no it's consistent with like all of the

2119
01:23:54,890 --> 01:23:52,260
sports teams being named you uh you you

2120
01:23:56,630 --> 01:23:54,900
take possession of the uh items of

2121
01:23:58,010 --> 01:23:56,640
cultural significance of the culture you

2122
01:24:00,010 --> 01:23:58,020
dominate that's been practiced

2123
01:24:02,750 --> 01:24:00,020
throughout history yeah yeah

2124
01:24:05,270 --> 01:24:02,760
like I mean what is it what is the case

2125
01:24:07,729 --> 01:24:05,280
is that there's very little doubt that

2126
01:24:10,250 --> 01:24:07,739
it's a money-making Enterprise it's it's

2127
01:24:13,010 --> 01:24:10,260
it's it's it's it's a kind of um

2128
01:24:15,770 --> 01:24:13,020
ready-made theme park

2129
01:24:18,290 --> 01:24:15,780
um and has been modified into this

2130
01:24:20,149 --> 01:24:18,300
series into these books and so on and so

2131
01:24:22,490 --> 01:24:20,159
forth

2132
01:24:25,010 --> 01:24:22,500
um so the thing is that the the story of

2133
01:24:28,070 --> 01:24:25,020
skin walker Ranch being kind of what it

2134
01:24:31,310 --> 01:24:28,080
is culturally is is really a a question

2135
01:24:33,590 --> 01:24:31,320
of its the capitalist Matrix within

2136
01:24:35,689 --> 01:24:33,600
which it emerges

2137
01:24:40,149 --> 01:24:35,699
um wide appeals to its particular

2138
01:24:47,590 --> 01:24:43,189
oh yeah it's a total chuckle

2139
01:24:53,810 --> 01:24:50,709
I said I watch it I'm not a fan

2140
01:24:54,950 --> 01:24:53,820
watch I watched Fortune fire too you

2141
01:24:58,010 --> 01:24:54,960
know

2142
01:25:02,570 --> 01:24:58,020
um so I like to see people

2143
01:25:04,790 --> 01:25:02,580
uh-oh Brian you're muted we lost you

2144
01:25:07,430 --> 01:25:04,800
one second there we go there you go am I

2145
01:25:08,290 --> 01:25:07,440
back I'm back yes I'm waving my hands

2146
01:25:10,370 --> 01:25:08,300
around

2147
01:25:12,229 --> 01:25:10,380
I'm adopted I want to have an Italian

2148
01:25:13,910 --> 01:25:12,239
back in my

2149
01:25:15,950 --> 01:25:13,920
my

2150
01:25:19,310 --> 01:25:15,960
gene pool

2151
01:25:22,010 --> 01:25:19,320
um yeah I never meet your Idols oh

2152
01:25:23,350 --> 01:25:22,020
reminds me of a story when uh

2153
01:25:26,810 --> 01:25:23,360
Edward said

2154
01:25:29,270 --> 01:25:26,820
very very sad sad thing but hey I met

2155
01:25:31,070 --> 01:25:29,280
one of my Idols I met um not an idol but

2156
01:25:34,010 --> 01:25:31,080
someone I respect that was Hans

2157
01:25:37,250 --> 01:25:34,020
kyogutomer that was a very good meeting

2158
01:25:38,450 --> 01:25:37,260
so there you go very nice guy he had

2159
01:25:41,030 --> 01:25:38,460
wine

2160
01:25:42,530 --> 01:25:41,040
yeah it was nice I wrote a poem about it

2161
01:25:44,090 --> 01:25:42,540
I'll send you the poem If you want I'm

2162
01:25:46,910 --> 01:25:44,100
not familiar with that individual who is

2163
01:25:48,290 --> 01:25:46,920
that oh Hans Gail garment was the um

2164
01:25:52,010 --> 01:25:48,300
kind of the most important student of

2165
01:25:53,510 --> 01:25:52,020
Martin Heidegger oh um he he left uh

2166
01:25:56,090 --> 01:25:53,520
Heidegger's influence because Heidegger

2167
01:25:56,810 --> 01:25:56,100
was a very strong personality

2168
01:25:58,430 --> 01:25:56,820
um

2169
01:26:00,649 --> 01:25:58,440
you're very problematic figure of course

2170
01:26:02,270 --> 01:26:00,659
but a very strong personality and how

2171
01:26:04,790 --> 01:26:02,280
did government knew that he had to clear

2172
01:26:06,590 --> 01:26:04,800
out in order to find his own space

2173
01:26:09,709 --> 01:26:06,600
and so gautamer is actually very

2174
01:26:12,649 --> 01:26:09,719
important to philosopher he born in 1900

2175
01:26:14,629 --> 01:26:12,659
died in 2002 would you believe I met him

2176
01:26:16,370 --> 01:26:14,639
in 96 97.

2177
01:26:17,870 --> 01:26:16,380
but he's important because he founded

2178
01:26:19,550 --> 01:26:17,880
what's called philosophical hermeneutics

2179
01:26:20,810 --> 01:26:19,560
his most important book is called Truth

2180
01:26:22,970 --> 01:26:20,820
and method

2181
01:26:24,950 --> 01:26:22,980
and it's there that actually you'll find

2182
01:26:27,470 --> 01:26:24,960
a lot of kind of what I'm talking about

2183
01:26:28,729 --> 01:26:27,480
in terms of the the temporality of

2184
01:26:32,689 --> 01:26:28,739
understanding

2185
01:26:33,890 --> 01:26:32,699
and how different uh times have their

2186
01:26:35,930 --> 01:26:33,900
own kind of what he could put in

2187
01:26:37,129 --> 01:26:35,940
phenomenology we call the Horizon kind

2188
01:26:39,830 --> 01:26:37,139
of a context

2189
01:26:42,290 --> 01:26:39,840
and he poses the problem well how is it

2190
01:26:44,689 --> 01:26:42,300
possible to understand someone coming

2191
01:26:46,189 --> 01:26:44,699
from a different Horizon

2192
01:26:48,110 --> 01:26:46,199
and he's got his own way of talking

2193
01:26:49,610 --> 01:26:48,120
about the fusion of Horizons because the

2194
01:26:50,990 --> 01:26:49,620
thing is that when we're talking about

2195
01:26:52,910 --> 01:26:51,000
something from the past like for example

2196
01:26:54,470 --> 01:26:52,920
if we're trying to read Plato or we're

2197
01:26:56,090 --> 01:26:54,480
trying to read Isaiah

2198
01:26:58,070 --> 01:26:56,100
and this is someone in a very distant

2199
01:27:00,470 --> 01:26:58,080
different different time different

2200
01:27:02,090 --> 01:27:00,480
language different culture how is it

2201
01:27:04,310 --> 01:27:02,100
that we can understand them at all well

2202
01:27:06,410 --> 01:27:04,320
first of all we don't go to read them

2203
01:27:09,169 --> 01:27:06,420
they've already kind of written us

2204
01:27:10,550 --> 01:27:09,179
we always already understand them right

2205
01:27:12,110 --> 01:27:10,560
because if we wouldn't we wouldn't they

2206
01:27:13,270 --> 01:27:12,120
wouldn't be there to be understood if

2207
01:27:15,229 --> 01:27:13,280
they weren't part of the tradition

2208
01:27:17,810 --> 01:27:15,239
tradition is a very important part of

2209
01:27:20,090 --> 01:27:17,820
God immerse way of looking at things and

2210
01:27:21,530 --> 01:27:20,100
then people like Hanz Robert yaus the

2211
01:27:23,870 --> 01:27:21,540
literary critic they take this even

2212
01:27:25,790 --> 01:27:23,880
further and you can run with this but

2213
01:27:28,189 --> 01:27:25,800
anyway that that that's gotimer's uh

2214
01:27:30,050 --> 01:27:28,199
great contribution and a total total

2215
01:27:31,550 --> 01:27:30,060
sweetheart and he's written a lot of

2216
01:27:32,930 --> 01:27:31,560
things he's written about health for

2217
01:27:35,870 --> 01:27:32,940
example you're in the middle mode it's a

2218
01:27:38,570 --> 01:27:35,880
bit about science and technology

2219
01:27:41,209 --> 01:27:38,580
um yeah real real great guy

2220
01:27:44,050 --> 01:27:41,219
if I didn't invited into our wedding

2221
01:27:51,950 --> 01:27:48,890
man we got married in 99 he was 99.

2222
01:27:54,050 --> 01:27:51,960
it was great just to be to say really

2223
01:27:56,390 --> 01:27:54,060
quickly in 1996 I took a trip to Germany

2224
01:27:59,149 --> 01:27:56,400
and um

2225
01:28:00,709 --> 01:27:59,159
I I was in Heidelberg and so with to the

2226
01:28:02,750 --> 01:28:00,719
amazement of my friends I phoned gotimer

2227
01:28:05,390 --> 01:28:02,760
out of the blue this no-name Canadian

2228
01:28:07,070 --> 01:28:05,400
phones this world famous philosopher

2229
01:28:08,330 --> 01:28:07,080
um and say hey I'm so and so can I you

2230
01:28:12,050 --> 01:28:08,340
know can I kind of meet in your in your

2231
01:28:14,570 --> 01:28:12,060
in your office he said no no no you come

2232
01:28:18,129 --> 01:28:14,580
to my house you have a little drink I

2233
01:28:20,629 --> 01:28:18,139
like a little drink the guy is 96.

2234
01:28:23,570 --> 01:28:20,639
amazing so I go out of course I show up

2235
01:28:25,970 --> 01:28:23,580
an hour early totally nervous uh go to

2236
01:28:27,530 --> 01:28:25,980
his big big old house ring on the Bell

2237
01:28:29,149 --> 01:28:27,540
phones go down there's a shuffling

2238
01:28:31,010 --> 01:28:29,159
behind the door and he shows up yeesh

2239
01:28:33,530 --> 01:28:31,020
comes to the door himself he had had

2240
01:28:35,330 --> 01:28:33,540
Polio was a young man

2241
01:28:36,830 --> 01:28:35,340
so we were still in these braces and he

2242
01:28:39,110 --> 01:28:36,840
had crutches and he came to the door and

2243
01:28:40,610 --> 01:28:39,120
opened it up for me

2244
01:28:42,830 --> 01:28:40,620
we went back to his little Back Garden

2245
01:28:45,709 --> 01:28:42,840
we had nacho chips and white wine and a

2246
01:28:48,890 --> 01:28:45,719
wonderful conversation

2247
01:28:52,430 --> 01:28:48,900
left it from there so great great moment

2248
01:28:54,410 --> 01:28:52,440
yeah so you meet your Idols meet meet me

2249
01:28:55,310 --> 01:28:54,420
don't be afraid to phone them up and say

2250
01:28:58,729 --> 01:28:55,320
hi

2251
01:29:00,610 --> 01:28:58,739
can we can we have a talk sure

2252
01:29:02,689 --> 01:29:00,620
you're not sucking mean

2253
01:29:05,149 --> 01:29:02,699
we're coming up right on the bottom of

2254
01:29:07,970 --> 01:29:05,159
the hour yes this has been wonderful

2255
01:29:09,470 --> 01:29:07,980
yeah yes thank you I was going to ask

2256
01:29:11,570 --> 01:29:09,480
would you mind extending just a bit

2257
01:29:13,970 --> 01:29:11,580
longer because I'm not at all I know we

2258
01:29:16,129 --> 01:29:13,980
do have some more questions and sure if

2259
01:29:17,870 --> 01:29:16,139
if

2260
01:29:20,330 --> 01:29:17,880
you've been totally fed up with me by

2261
01:29:24,890 --> 01:29:21,890
you got to take me you gotta take me

2262
01:29:25,910 --> 01:29:24,900
Micro dose me you know micro dose me

2263
01:29:28,129 --> 01:29:25,920
yeah

2264
01:29:30,169 --> 01:29:28,139
that's the only way I can handle myself

2265
01:29:32,750 --> 01:29:30,179
oh my goodness anyway please what what

2266
01:29:36,410 --> 01:29:32,760
more can what more can we

2267
01:29:40,610 --> 01:29:37,790
um well something that you were just

2268
01:29:42,590 --> 01:29:40,620
saying uh about the that philosopher I

2269
01:29:44,810 --> 01:29:42,600
thought was interesting he you mentioned

2270
01:29:47,629 --> 01:29:44,820
that that philosopher was concerned with

2271
01:29:51,910 --> 01:29:47,639
uh different sort of World Views

2272
01:29:54,350 --> 01:29:51,920
colliding is that correct and uh yeah

2273
01:29:55,910 --> 01:29:54,360
okay and something we've really dealt

2274
01:29:58,669 --> 01:29:55,920
with a lot on this show

2275
01:30:01,669 --> 01:29:58,679
um under uh Leah's uh guidance largely

2276
01:30:03,770 --> 01:30:01,679
uh in a very good way is uh this uh

2277
01:30:05,510 --> 01:30:03,780
breakdown of consensus reality and

2278
01:30:08,510 --> 01:30:05,520
condition of seeing in modern culture

2279
01:30:10,430 --> 01:30:08,520
and I'm wondering what that philosopher

2280
01:30:12,530 --> 01:30:10,440
would have to say about it oh boy you

2281
01:30:14,450 --> 01:30:12,540
know actually there's a a fellow uh

2282
01:30:16,790 --> 01:30:14,460
whose name will lose me right now

2283
01:30:19,310 --> 01:30:16,800
um what I do is I I stock the different

2284
01:30:21,649 --> 01:30:19,320
University presses I I watch them all

2285
01:30:23,689 --> 01:30:21,659
like a hawk and when they've got sales I

2286
01:30:25,610 --> 01:30:23,699
scoop down and make an investment as you

2287
01:30:26,270 --> 01:30:25,620
can see behind me

2288
01:30:29,930 --> 01:30:26,280
um

2289
01:30:30,470 --> 01:30:29,940
and actually a fellow wrote a book

2290
01:30:31,550 --> 01:30:30,480
um

2291
01:30:33,050 --> 01:30:31,560
I can't remember the title can't

2292
01:30:35,510 --> 01:30:33,060
remember the author all about how

2293
01:30:37,370 --> 01:30:35,520
hermeneutics right the the art of

2294
01:30:40,729 --> 01:30:37,380
understanding the art of interpretation

2295
01:30:43,430 --> 01:30:40,739
okay uh can be used precisely in this

2296
01:30:47,510 --> 01:30:43,440
field when it comes to irresolvable

2297
01:30:49,070 --> 01:30:47,520
problems over over race over gender uh

2298
01:30:51,070 --> 01:30:49,080
which are you know the big topics in

2299
01:30:54,350 --> 01:30:51,080
South of the Border anyway

2300
01:30:55,970 --> 01:30:54,360
up here too but but more vehemently in

2301
01:30:57,350 --> 01:30:55,980
the South of the Border it seems to me

2302
01:30:59,390 --> 01:30:57,360
anyway

2303
01:31:00,770 --> 01:30:59,400
um because what what hermeneutics points

2304
01:31:02,810 --> 01:31:00,780
out is precisely that where you seem to

2305
01:31:05,870 --> 01:31:02,820
have an irresolvable conflict you must

2306
01:31:07,850 --> 01:31:05,880
have some sort of shared assumption some

2307
01:31:09,530 --> 01:31:07,860
sort of shared in other words you can't

2308
01:31:11,090 --> 01:31:09,540
have two teams fighting it out unless

2309
01:31:13,070 --> 01:31:11,100
they're on the same field

2310
01:31:14,629 --> 01:31:13,080
so the whole point here is okay well

2311
01:31:16,250 --> 01:31:14,639
what do they have in common that they're

2312
01:31:18,890 --> 01:31:16,260
that they're you know

2313
01:31:20,270 --> 01:31:18,900
fighting over uh what's what what's the

2314
01:31:21,830 --> 01:31:20,280
hill

2315
01:31:22,669 --> 01:31:21,840
um so that's one thing that one way it

2316
01:31:24,890 --> 01:31:22,679
can help

2317
01:31:27,350 --> 01:31:24,900
the other way is it can sort of begin to

2318
01:31:28,250 --> 01:31:27,360
help to try to find a Common Language to

2319
01:31:29,750 --> 01:31:28,260
find out where people are

2320
01:31:30,890 --> 01:31:29,760
misinterpreting each other

2321
01:31:32,209 --> 01:31:30,900
right

2322
01:31:34,430 --> 01:31:32,219
um so for example if you look at the

2323
01:31:36,050 --> 01:31:34,440
expression woke

2324
01:31:38,890 --> 01:31:36,060
um the first time I heard it a few years

2325
01:31:40,850 --> 01:31:38,900
ago it was used I heard it in a

2326
01:31:42,229 --> 01:31:40,860
pejorative sense

2327
01:31:44,270 --> 01:31:42,239
right

2328
01:31:45,350 --> 01:31:44,280
um then I heard people use it in a in a

2329
01:31:47,629 --> 01:31:45,360
kind of a good well that's a good thing

2330
01:31:49,310 --> 01:31:47,639
to be woke and now in Canada it seems to

2331
01:31:51,050 --> 01:31:49,320
kind of shift it back to almost only

2332
01:31:52,550 --> 01:31:51,060
pejorative

2333
01:31:54,050 --> 01:31:52,560
um so but what do we mean by that what

2334
01:31:56,270 --> 01:31:54,060
do we mean by gender what we mean by by

2335
01:31:58,790 --> 01:31:56,280
sex what do we mean when we say defund

2336
01:32:00,770 --> 01:31:58,800
the police what do we mean by that why

2337
01:32:01,910 --> 01:32:00,780
would we say that so you got to find it

2338
01:32:03,950 --> 01:32:01,920
first of all what are the common what's

2339
01:32:05,990 --> 01:32:03,960
the Common Grounds you've got to find a

2340
01:32:07,189 --> 01:32:06,000
Common Language and then over and above

2341
01:32:09,169 --> 01:32:07,199
that we have to sort of find out what's

2342
01:32:10,790 --> 01:32:09,179
at stake what what do people want out of

2343
01:32:12,530 --> 01:32:10,800
this whole thing and then we get into a

2344
01:32:13,970 --> 01:32:12,540
whole different field which you find in

2345
01:32:15,709 --> 01:32:13,980
legal scholarship which is alternative

2346
01:32:18,110 --> 01:32:15,719
dispute resolution

2347
01:32:20,570 --> 01:32:18,120
which tries to try to move move parties

2348
01:32:23,149 --> 01:32:20,580
Beyond a zero-sum game to try to find

2349
01:32:25,669 --> 01:32:23,159
the most mutually beneficial resolution

2350
01:32:28,189 --> 01:32:25,679
to their apparently irresolvable

2351
01:32:31,010 --> 01:32:28,199
conflict so so hermeneutics is very very

2352
01:32:33,470 --> 01:32:31,020
important in this regard I think it it

2353
01:32:34,970 --> 01:32:33,480
offers a lot of possibilities and

2354
01:32:38,030 --> 01:32:34,980
there's at least one scholar out there

2355
01:32:40,729 --> 01:32:38,040
who's uh who's digging into it

2356
01:32:43,550 --> 01:32:40,739
um but you've got to you see the other

2357
01:32:46,310 --> 01:32:43,560
thing is that from a more Marxist

2358
01:32:49,850 --> 01:32:46,320
perspective what we see are are actually

2359
01:32:50,590 --> 01:32:49,860
I mean real social conflict

2360
01:32:52,669 --> 01:32:50,600
um

2361
01:32:53,930 --> 01:32:52,679
what happened to the symbolic level

2362
01:32:55,910 --> 01:32:53,940
happens because something at the

2363
01:32:57,590 --> 01:32:55,920
material Level is not resolved

2364
01:32:59,810 --> 01:32:57,600
so for example when it comes to

2365
01:33:00,890 --> 01:32:59,820
so-called cancel culture why is it so

2366
01:33:03,790 --> 01:33:00,900
vehement

2367
01:33:05,870 --> 01:33:03,800
well because the the claims of

2368
01:33:08,209 --> 01:33:05,880
marginalized peoples have not been

2369
01:33:11,149 --> 01:33:08,219
resolved at the material Level

2370
01:33:12,709 --> 01:33:11,159
right at the level of equality at the

2371
01:33:14,930 --> 01:33:12,719
level where they're not fearing for

2372
01:33:17,030 --> 01:33:14,940
their lives at the level where they're

2373
01:33:19,669 --> 01:33:17,040
not subject to like you know

2374
01:33:21,770 --> 01:33:19,679
um more greater instances of self-harm

2375
01:33:23,390 --> 01:33:21,780
suicide depression so on and so forth

2376
01:33:25,250 --> 01:33:23,400
right

2377
01:33:27,590 --> 01:33:25,260
the moment that that they have that sort

2378
01:33:30,050 --> 01:33:27,600
of material security moment they're kind

2379
01:33:32,149 --> 01:33:30,060
of folded into the workings of society

2380
01:33:34,550 --> 01:33:32,159
then these more symbolic struggles

2381
01:33:37,430 --> 01:33:34,560
disappear but the symbolic struggles

2382
01:33:40,370 --> 01:33:37,440
become important precisely because the

2383
01:33:42,110 --> 01:33:40,380
real problems are not resolved so you

2384
01:33:45,050 --> 01:33:42,120
have to bump it up to

2385
01:33:46,430 --> 01:33:45,060
fighting over pronouns

2386
01:33:47,570 --> 01:33:46,440
right

2387
01:33:49,010 --> 01:33:47,580
um because they don't get the they don't

2388
01:33:50,330 --> 01:33:49,020
get the necessary respect just just in

2389
01:33:52,010 --> 01:33:50,340
everyday life

2390
01:33:54,229 --> 01:33:52,020
if you resolve that then a lot of other

2391
01:33:57,649 --> 01:33:54,239
problems go away so that I mean as a

2392
01:33:59,209 --> 01:33:57,659
Marxist and then has made this point you

2393
01:34:02,030 --> 01:33:59,219
know that a lot of so-called political

2394
01:34:03,830 --> 01:34:02,040
correctness is just bumping up

2395
01:34:05,350 --> 01:34:03,840
social struggle into the symbolic level

2396
01:34:07,430 --> 01:34:05,360
symbolic

2397
01:34:08,750 --> 01:34:07,440
language representation and so on

2398
01:34:10,850 --> 01:34:08,760
because things are not resolved

2399
01:34:13,490 --> 01:34:10,860
materially in the institutions of

2400
01:34:15,890 --> 01:34:13,500
society that is so fascinating because

2401
01:34:18,350 --> 01:34:15,900
just on UFO Twitter I don't make a

2402
01:34:21,530 --> 01:34:18,360
single short comment just on UFO Twitter

2403
01:34:25,250 --> 01:34:21,540
there is a constant uh significant

2404
01:34:29,750 --> 01:34:25,260
ongoing battle about what it even means

2405
01:34:31,250 --> 01:34:29,760
to say UFO sure Are UFOs real in quotes

2406
01:34:33,649 --> 01:34:31,260
uh you know I've gotten into a lot of

2407
01:34:36,770 --> 01:34:33,659
arguments with Skeptics and true Seekers

2408
01:34:38,590 --> 01:34:36,780
about if ball lightning with the same

2409
01:34:40,729 --> 01:34:38,600
features that are described by UFO

2410
01:34:43,010 --> 01:34:40,739
Advocates actually exist Does that mean

2411
01:34:45,350 --> 01:34:43,020
UFOs exist well the UK Minister of

2412
01:34:48,290 --> 01:34:45,360
Defense says yes the CIA U.S Air Force

2413
01:34:50,629 --> 01:34:48,300
says yes a vast majority of Skeptics say

2414
01:34:53,450 --> 01:34:50,639
no so I don't know what to make of that

2415
01:34:56,209 --> 01:34:53,460
but what you were just saying feels very

2416
01:34:58,430 --> 01:34:56,219
close to an answer to why I've been

2417
01:35:00,410 --> 01:34:58,440
struggling with this yeah what you want

2418
01:35:02,270 --> 01:35:00,420
to say is listen we all know what UFO

2419
01:35:04,129 --> 01:35:02,280
means but what we're doing is we're

2420
01:35:06,950 --> 01:35:04,139
we're we're trying we're we know what it

2421
01:35:08,810 --> 01:35:06,960
means but we're struggling we're in

2422
01:35:11,330 --> 01:35:08,820
dispute over what it denotes

2423
01:35:12,950 --> 01:35:11,340
right the German philosopher uh fregan

2424
01:35:14,570 --> 01:35:12,960
made this distinction back like over 100

2425
01:35:16,850 --> 01:35:14,580
years ago between sense and different

2426
01:35:19,430 --> 01:35:16,860
sense and reference

2427
01:35:20,570 --> 01:35:19,440
and the the the illustration the the

2428
01:35:23,689 --> 01:35:20,580
classical illustration is that the

2429
01:35:26,090 --> 01:35:23,699
Morning Star is the evening star

2430
01:35:28,970 --> 01:35:26,100
they're both Venus right Morning Star

2431
01:35:31,310 --> 01:35:28,980
and evening star different expressions

2432
01:35:33,770 --> 01:35:31,320
are the same thing the sense is

2433
01:35:37,310 --> 01:35:33,780
different but the reference is the same

2434
01:35:38,570 --> 01:35:37,320
with UFO we know what the sense is but

2435
01:35:40,010 --> 01:35:38,580
we don't know what the reference is

2436
01:35:42,709 --> 01:35:40,020
we're over in dispute of what the

2437
01:35:45,050 --> 01:35:42,719
reference is oh it refers to scout ships

2438
01:35:46,669 --> 01:35:45,060
from Zeta reticulate no it refers to

2439
01:35:49,430 --> 01:35:46,679
misidentifications of natural phenomena

2440
01:35:51,229 --> 01:35:49,440
no it refers to etc etc et cetera et

2441
01:35:53,030 --> 01:35:51,239
cetera so that's what so so there's the

2442
01:35:54,290 --> 01:35:53,040
agreement because you couldn't you

2443
01:35:56,090 --> 01:35:54,300
couldn't be fighting about it unless you

2444
01:35:59,270 --> 01:35:56,100
didn't already share some understanding

2445
01:36:01,370 --> 01:35:59,280
of the expression right and in a way

2446
01:36:02,629 --> 01:36:01,380
because we're just like an understanding

2447
01:36:04,550 --> 01:36:02,639
of linguistics can come into play

2448
01:36:06,129 --> 01:36:04,560
because there are a lot of people a lot

2449
01:36:09,890 --> 01:36:06,139
of kind of older timers

2450
01:36:11,270 --> 01:36:09,900
resisting the shift from UFO to UAP

2451
01:36:12,590 --> 01:36:11,280
but you know what

2452
01:36:14,510 --> 01:36:12,600
it doesn't make a difference because

2453
01:36:16,490 --> 01:36:14,520
because what's happened is the

2454
01:36:19,970 --> 01:36:16,500
expression UFO

2455
01:36:21,350 --> 01:36:19,980
and UAP tend to be used in the same way

2456
01:36:23,270 --> 01:36:21,360
right it's not that it's not that

2457
01:36:24,709 --> 01:36:23,280
unidentified area phenomena is trying to

2458
01:36:27,350 --> 01:36:24,719
cover up the fact that it's not an

2459
01:36:29,570 --> 01:36:27,360
object well no it just what happens is

2460
01:36:31,729 --> 01:36:29,580
they function in the same if they've got

2461
01:36:34,010 --> 01:36:31,739
the same function in the language

2462
01:36:35,930 --> 01:36:34,020
so for example I can play chess and I

2463
01:36:37,490 --> 01:36:35,940
can use Ivory pieces I can use wooden

2464
01:36:38,570 --> 01:36:37,500
pieces I can use Stone pieces I can use

2465
01:36:40,370 --> 01:36:38,580
little Pebbles

2466
01:36:41,629 --> 01:36:40,380
but as long as it functions like a pawn

2467
01:36:44,090 --> 01:36:41,639
it's a pawn

2468
01:36:46,729 --> 01:36:44,100
and the point is that Flying Saucer UFO

2469
01:36:49,370 --> 01:36:46,739
UAP at a certain level

2470
01:36:50,689 --> 01:36:49,380
are all the same

2471
01:36:53,390 --> 01:36:50,699
peace

2472
01:36:54,890 --> 01:36:53,400
right just different materials

2473
01:36:58,390 --> 01:36:54,900
and that's called in in structures

2474
01:37:02,810 --> 01:37:00,890
you mentioned uh working on witkins

2475
01:37:03,950 --> 01:37:02,820
Stein previously and yeah I feel like I

2476
01:37:05,209 --> 01:37:03,960
heard a little bit of wickenstein then

2477
01:37:07,930 --> 01:37:05,219
they're letting the fly to the bottle or

2478
01:37:10,430 --> 01:37:07,940
whatever well no that that's a lot more

2479
01:37:12,590 --> 01:37:10,440
semiotics instructionalism there okay

2480
01:37:14,090 --> 01:37:12,600
well I've got to refresh myself I wish I

2481
01:37:16,370 --> 01:37:14,100
wish you know yeah let that fly out of

2482
01:37:17,810 --> 01:37:16,380
the bottle absolutely

2483
01:37:20,750 --> 01:37:17,820
um there's a lot of a lot a lot of that

2484
01:37:22,310 --> 01:37:20,760
to be done in the UFO field for sure

2485
01:37:25,550 --> 01:37:22,320
um

2486
01:37:26,629 --> 01:37:25,560
but see again but then that that I look

2487
01:37:28,370 --> 01:37:26,639
at it from the point of view of quote

2488
01:37:31,070 --> 01:37:28,380
unquote the concept

2489
01:37:32,930 --> 01:37:31,080
right rather than the thing

2490
01:37:34,310 --> 01:37:32,940
right and so when it comes to say that

2491
01:37:36,950 --> 01:37:34,320
the science of ufology what's

2492
01:37:39,410 --> 01:37:36,960
interesting for me is is the way that it

2493
01:37:41,750 --> 01:37:39,420
that it brings to Bear Notions of what

2494
01:37:43,490 --> 01:37:41,760
is or is not legitimate science uh what

2495
01:37:45,410 --> 01:37:43,500
gets funded what does not get funded who

2496
01:37:46,189 --> 01:37:45,420
pays attention to what

2497
01:37:47,870 --> 01:37:46,199
um

2498
01:37:50,510 --> 01:37:47,880
right this is all about to do with like

2499
01:37:52,430 --> 01:37:50,520
the sociology of science uh the history

2500
01:37:54,470 --> 01:37:52,440
and philosophy of science more than the

2501
01:37:56,689 --> 01:37:54,480
actual practice of discovering how much

2502
01:37:58,310 --> 01:37:56,699
a muon weighs

2503
01:38:00,770 --> 01:37:58,320
right

2504
01:38:01,450 --> 01:38:00,780
um and so of course it's safer there for

2505
01:38:05,270 --> 01:38:01,460
me

2506
01:38:07,610 --> 01:38:05,280
because like I say if to see to take

2507
01:38:10,010 --> 01:38:07,620
seriously the question of the nature the

2508
01:38:11,270 --> 01:38:10,020
being of the UAP for lack of a better

2509
01:38:13,550 --> 01:38:11,280
word

2510
01:38:16,010 --> 01:38:13,560
um boy that's a whole other rabbit hole

2511
01:38:18,590 --> 01:38:16,020
and uh I would need a whole other life

2512
01:38:20,450 --> 01:38:18,600
to to to do that although I've got sturx

2513
01:38:23,570 --> 01:38:20,460
book on the wall and rudge's book on the

2514
01:38:26,270 --> 01:38:23,580
wall and so on uh but that that's that's

2515
01:38:28,610 --> 01:38:26,280
just stuck I try to avoid that and I

2516
01:38:29,510 --> 01:38:28,620
will avoid that just to maintain a

2517
01:38:32,090 --> 01:38:29,520
certain

2518
01:38:33,830 --> 01:38:32,100
um intellectual honesty so I don't know

2519
01:38:35,930 --> 01:38:33,840
it's all very interesting talk to

2520
01:38:37,669 --> 01:38:35,940
someone who understands that stuff uh

2521
01:38:39,530 --> 01:38:37,679
physics talk to someone who can you know

2522
01:38:40,729 --> 01:38:39,540
make the calculations let them let them

2523
01:38:42,350 --> 01:38:40,739
do it

2524
01:38:44,450 --> 01:38:42,360
um I I can talk to you about the the

2525
01:38:46,070 --> 01:38:44,460
mythological aspect the ideological

2526
01:38:47,330 --> 01:38:46,080
aspect

2527
01:38:48,410 --> 01:38:47,340
um and that's what does it for me

2528
01:38:50,930 --> 01:38:48,420
because I think there's a lot more at

2529
01:38:53,050 --> 01:38:50,940
stake there although if it turns out to

2530
01:38:55,790 --> 01:38:53,060
be you know some some really

2531
01:38:57,770 --> 01:38:55,800
earth-shattering Paradigm shattering

2532
01:38:59,450 --> 01:38:57,780
natural phenomenon that would be

2533
01:39:01,310 --> 01:38:59,460
interesting too

2534
01:39:02,510 --> 01:39:01,320
but like I said I still don't think I

2535
01:39:05,450 --> 01:39:02,520
still don't think it's crypto

2536
01:39:07,610 --> 01:39:05,460
terrestrials or interdimensionals or

2537
01:39:09,050 --> 01:39:07,620
Vector reticulins I think that's the

2538
01:39:10,550 --> 01:39:09,060
that's see that's the isn't that the

2539
01:39:11,990 --> 01:39:10,560
kind of the least interesting possible

2540
01:39:13,250 --> 01:39:12,000
explanation

2541
01:39:15,310 --> 01:39:13,260
isn't that kind of impoverished does

2542
01:39:18,470 --> 01:39:15,320
that lack imagination

2543
01:39:20,570 --> 01:39:18,480
oh come on yeah I mean it's probably

2544
01:39:22,790 --> 01:39:20,580
some more interesting than that you know

2545
01:39:24,290 --> 01:39:22,800
as Nick says well that's just ourselves

2546
01:39:25,629 --> 01:39:24,300
again there's enough of it there's eight

2547
01:39:27,830 --> 01:39:25,639
billion of us now

2548
01:39:30,530 --> 01:39:27,840
I want something different flying

2549
01:39:33,050 --> 01:39:30,540
vehicles yeah yeah it's a very human

2550
01:39:35,810 --> 01:39:33,060
media yeah it's just Tesla more Tesla

2551
01:39:38,990 --> 01:39:35,820
yeah self-driving self-driving flying

2552
01:39:39,830 --> 01:39:39,000
trust driving uaps no give me something

2553
01:39:41,750 --> 01:39:39,840
different

2554
01:39:43,610 --> 01:39:41,760
give me something interesting

2555
01:39:45,290 --> 01:39:43,620
you know and a lot of people who are

2556
01:39:47,629 --> 01:39:45,300
interested in the question of the nature

2557
01:39:49,490 --> 01:39:47,639
of are also you know crying out luck

2558
01:39:52,430 --> 01:39:49,500
give me something new

2559
01:39:54,470 --> 01:39:52,440
you know it's like eth not eth well

2560
01:39:57,229 --> 01:39:54,480
let's give me something new I've been

2561
01:39:59,990 --> 01:39:57,239
trying yeah well get get to get to work

2562
01:40:01,610 --> 01:40:00,000
young man but it's good the theme has

2563
01:40:03,770 --> 01:40:01,620
just uh and this is what I'm always

2564
01:40:06,290 --> 01:40:03,780
trying to defend this is Walt Whitman

2565
01:40:07,610 --> 01:40:06,300
the theme has Vista right there's all

2566
01:40:09,290 --> 01:40:07,620
sorts of crazy [\h__\h] you can talk about

2567
01:40:11,450 --> 01:40:09,300
and everything flows into it isn't that

2568
01:40:13,970 --> 01:40:11,460
interesting right like and you know this

2569
01:40:15,169 --> 01:40:13,980
as well as I do right the UFO and that's

2570
01:40:16,750 --> 01:40:15,179
the other great thing right because UFO

2571
01:40:18,830 --> 01:40:16,760
creates a vortex

2572
01:40:21,350 --> 01:40:18,840
in the traditional view right there's

2573
01:40:22,490 --> 01:40:21,360
always that Whirlwind that sucks up the

2574
01:40:24,169 --> 01:40:22,500
person of the UFO where they get

2575
01:40:26,030 --> 01:40:24,179
abducted well the UFO is a cultural

2576
01:40:27,729 --> 01:40:26,040
phenomenon has this Vortex into which

2577
01:40:31,850 --> 01:40:27,739
everything gets sucked

2578
01:40:43,330 --> 01:40:31,860
economics politics sexuality science

2579
01:40:49,270 --> 01:40:46,850
of ball lightning is a electromagnetic

2580
01:40:52,970 --> 01:40:49,280
Vortex

2581
01:40:55,870 --> 01:40:52,980
electromagnetism yeah well you know you

2582
01:40:58,490 --> 01:40:55,880
try that's all you can you only ever try

2583
01:41:00,770 --> 01:40:58,500
uh yeah yeah so it's all yeah this this

2584
01:41:02,629 --> 01:41:00,780
is why this is why I I um I like the

2585
01:41:03,950 --> 01:41:02,639
whole the whole deal

2586
01:41:05,930 --> 01:41:03,960
um but it's but it's but the thing this

2587
01:41:08,270 --> 01:41:05,940
is the thing it's so big though

2588
01:41:10,250 --> 01:41:08,280
right it's like how do you there's like

2589
01:41:12,530 --> 01:41:10,260
the question how do you eat an elephant

2590
01:41:15,410 --> 01:41:12,540
right with a with a bun and some mustard

2591
01:41:18,530 --> 01:41:15,420
no a little bit at a time well

2592
01:41:20,149 --> 01:41:18,540
I don't know how do you eat a nebula

2593
01:41:22,669 --> 01:41:20,159
because it's something it's like so much

2594
01:41:24,290 --> 01:41:22,679
bigger so much faster

2595
01:41:26,629 --> 01:41:24,300
um and so the thing is I'm I'm always

2596
01:41:29,750 --> 01:41:26,639
I've been working on this damn poem this

2597
01:41:31,970 --> 01:41:29,760
damned epic piece since 1993.

2598
01:41:33,470 --> 01:41:31,980
right and I got like bits and pieces and

2599
01:41:35,330 --> 01:41:33,480
stuff but the thing is like it just okay

2600
01:41:36,590 --> 01:41:35,340
gotta take God to read this book oh

2601
01:41:38,330 --> 01:41:36,600
there's a guy to read that book gotta

2602
01:41:40,070 --> 01:41:38,340
take some more notes gotta and the thing

2603
01:41:43,010 --> 01:41:40,080
is it's gotten to the point where the

2604
01:41:44,930 --> 01:41:43,020
project is now the website in a way I've

2605
01:41:47,149 --> 01:41:44,940
ended up writing the interpretation of a

2606
01:41:49,550 --> 01:41:47,159
poem that I haven't written

2607
01:41:52,250 --> 01:41:49,560
right so so the myth is the poem that's

2608
01:41:54,649 --> 01:41:52,260
already there and the the epic poem is

2609
01:41:56,870 --> 01:41:54,659
in fact this website which interprets

2610
01:41:59,390 --> 01:41:56,880
the myth as a poem and then sometimes in

2611
01:42:01,790 --> 01:41:59,400
introduction to the poems of its own

2612
01:42:02,689 --> 01:42:01,800
so if if I die before I finish the damn

2613
01:42:04,550 --> 01:42:02,699
thing

2614
01:42:06,550 --> 01:42:04,560
that's the that's the job that's the

2615
01:42:09,770 --> 01:42:06,560
work

2616
01:42:13,310 --> 01:42:09,780
oh yes the snake eats its own a snake

2617
01:42:16,490 --> 01:42:13,320
eats its own tail indeed yup yup yup yup

2618
01:42:18,830 --> 01:42:16,500
yup yup yup yup oh boy oh what fun is

2619
01:42:21,290 --> 01:42:18,840
the UFO a circle because it encompasses

2620
01:42:25,810 --> 01:42:21,300
it is a vortex do you think is like an

2621
01:42:31,010 --> 01:42:29,149
that's a good question I mean the on the

2622
01:42:33,709 --> 01:42:31,020
one hand this the the answer to screen

2623
01:42:36,070 --> 01:42:33,719
mode is yes but the thing is the thing

2624
01:42:38,750 --> 01:42:36,080
is that the UFO is not a circle right

2625
01:42:40,910 --> 01:42:38,760
what's true to say is the UFO is

2626
01:42:41,930 --> 01:42:40,920
polymorphous

2627
01:42:43,490 --> 01:42:41,940
right

2628
01:42:44,930 --> 01:42:43,500
um even the so-called first flying

2629
01:42:46,790 --> 01:42:44,940
saucers weren't flying sauces right they

2630
01:42:50,270 --> 01:42:46,800
were crescents

2631
01:42:52,250 --> 01:42:50,280
um and the UFO notoriously takes many

2632
01:42:55,070 --> 01:42:52,260
many many many shapes so I mean we're

2633
01:42:56,750 --> 01:42:55,080
all familiar with I'm I'm sure uh the

2634
01:42:59,209 --> 01:42:56,760
the sort of charts that were made by the

2635
01:43:00,709 --> 01:42:59,219
early early UFO study groups of all the

2636
01:43:02,810 --> 01:43:00,719
pictures of flying saucers to try to

2637
01:43:03,950 --> 01:43:02,820
catalog their shapes and they're all

2638
01:43:06,290 --> 01:43:03,960
kind of the same but they're all kind of

2639
01:43:08,270 --> 01:43:06,300
different and now

2640
01:43:09,530 --> 01:43:08,280
um as we all know

2641
01:43:11,930 --> 01:43:09,540
um they're even more amorphous because

2642
01:43:13,490 --> 01:43:11,940
they've seen this chain shape in midair

2643
01:43:14,870 --> 01:43:13,500
and they become a structure and then

2644
01:43:17,450 --> 01:43:14,880
they become a blob and then they become

2645
01:43:19,310 --> 01:43:17,460
then they wink out and then they so this

2646
01:43:22,250 --> 01:43:19,320
is the other beautiful thing

2647
01:43:23,450 --> 01:43:22,260
about about the UFO or the UAP or

2648
01:43:24,950 --> 01:43:23,460
whatever you want to call it is that

2649
01:43:26,629 --> 01:43:24,960
notice again first of all the

2650
01:43:28,189 --> 01:43:26,639
Expressions we use to denote it are

2651
01:43:30,890 --> 01:43:28,199
always changing

2652
01:43:32,689 --> 01:43:30,900
and the phenomenon itself is always

2653
01:43:34,010 --> 01:43:32,699
changing

2654
01:43:35,570 --> 01:43:34,020
right

2655
01:43:37,790 --> 01:43:35,580
um this is what the philosopher deridan

2656
01:43:39,950 --> 01:43:37,800
might refer to as different wrongs but

2657
01:43:41,810 --> 01:43:39,960
this is this this is constant changing

2658
01:43:43,850 --> 01:43:41,820
this constant it's always one step ahead

2659
01:43:45,290 --> 01:43:43,860
of us One Step Beyond us

2660
01:43:47,390 --> 01:43:45,300
and the moment we think we ought to pin

2661
01:43:50,149 --> 01:43:47,400
down nope it's something else

2662
01:43:53,510 --> 01:43:50,159
that's very interesting and that is a

2663
01:43:55,370 --> 01:43:53,520
feature of the so-called paranormal in

2664
01:43:58,310 --> 01:43:55,380
general you find it in cryptozoology you

2665
01:44:00,530 --> 01:43:58,320
find it in parapsychology you find it in

2666
01:44:01,790 --> 01:44:00,540
in the study of ghosts and things it's

2667
01:44:03,770 --> 01:44:01,800
always this you think you got it but

2668
01:44:05,810 --> 01:44:03,780
it's something else

2669
01:44:09,709 --> 01:44:05,820
uh this is what Hanson calls the

2670
01:44:11,810 --> 01:44:09,719
trickster right uh which is itself very

2671
01:44:14,570 --> 01:44:11,820
very interesting in there that has a

2672
01:44:17,750 --> 01:44:14,580
profound ontological significance

2673
01:44:20,090 --> 01:44:17,760
because it isn't reality like that

2674
01:44:21,350 --> 01:44:20,100
right I mean we break it down we break

2675
01:44:24,229 --> 01:44:21,360
it down we break it down then we hit

2676
01:44:26,750 --> 01:44:24,239
Quantum and we hit the quantum field and

2677
01:44:28,669 --> 01:44:26,760
all bets are off because all the all the

2678
01:44:31,189 --> 01:44:28,679
conceptual all the conceptual tools we

2679
01:44:33,410 --> 01:44:31,199
have just don't work you might I was

2680
01:44:35,870 --> 01:44:33,420
discussions with a student today it may

2681
01:44:37,550 --> 01:44:35,880
be the case that the quantum realm is

2682
01:44:39,350 --> 01:44:37,560
something where the human mind which

2683
01:44:42,470 --> 01:44:39,360
evolved in sort of a more Newtonian

2684
01:44:44,030 --> 01:44:42,480
realm just can't hack it it just doesn't

2685
01:44:47,750 --> 01:44:44,040
have the wherewithal it doesn't have

2686
01:44:50,270 --> 01:44:47,760
what it takes to make sense of it in the

2687
01:44:52,550 --> 01:44:50,280
same way that our normal consensus

2688
01:44:55,550 --> 01:44:52,560
perceptual world makes sense to us

2689
01:44:57,410 --> 01:44:55,560
and the UFO perhaps points to that

2690
01:44:58,970 --> 01:44:57,420
right these these phenomena they point

2691
01:44:59,930 --> 01:44:58,980
to that that there's that there's

2692
01:45:02,209 --> 01:44:59,940
something there's something more

2693
01:45:04,910 --> 01:45:02,219
something Beyond and that is an

2694
01:45:06,290 --> 01:45:04,920
important Point absolutely because we

2695
01:45:07,850 --> 01:45:06,300
human beings

2696
01:45:10,910 --> 01:45:07,860
like to think we've got it figured out

2697
01:45:13,550 --> 01:45:10,920
and we're in charge but as but as Mama

2698
01:45:15,490 --> 01:45:13,560
Aya tell told Terence McKenna you

2699
01:45:18,890 --> 01:45:15,500
monkeys think you're in charge

2700
01:45:21,229 --> 01:45:18,900
no no no that's not how it is so it

2701
01:45:22,250 --> 01:45:21,239
breaks a certain hubris it's a point

2702
01:45:24,229 --> 01:45:22,260
where

2703
01:45:25,790 --> 01:45:24,239
science runs up against something it

2704
01:45:28,850 --> 01:45:25,800
cannot resolve

2705
01:45:30,770 --> 01:45:28,860
that's important that's interesting in

2706
01:45:33,470 --> 01:45:30,780
itself and then this plays itself out

2707
01:45:35,870 --> 01:45:33,480
socially in a lot of other ways too so

2708
01:45:38,090 --> 01:45:35,880
again you know the field the theme has

2709
01:45:41,149 --> 01:45:38,100
Vista holy smokes you're gonna you're

2710
01:45:46,669 --> 01:45:43,570
forever

2711
01:45:49,729 --> 01:45:46,679
as long as there's a YouTube you'll be

2712
01:45:51,530 --> 01:45:49,739
having live streams I hope I hope well

2713
01:45:52,850 --> 01:45:51,540
you mentioned the phenomena changing and

2714
01:45:54,770 --> 01:45:52,860
uh this is something we've talked about

2715
01:45:56,450 --> 01:45:54,780
a bit too

2716
01:45:58,850 --> 01:45:56,460
um but I've kind of noticed that it

2717
01:46:01,609 --> 01:45:58,860
tends to always move into these darker

2718
01:46:04,609 --> 01:46:01,619
categories of our understanding like now

2719
01:46:07,310 --> 01:46:04,619
uh people often like will appeal to

2720
01:46:08,810 --> 01:46:07,320
Quantum Mechanics or what they say is

2721
01:46:11,149 --> 01:46:08,820
consciousness which actually happens to

2722
01:46:13,129 --> 01:46:11,159
be another ambiguous word that I don't

2723
01:46:15,830 --> 01:46:13,139
think people are on the same field with

2724
01:46:17,030 --> 01:46:15,840
and I um it's kind of it was kind of the

2725
01:46:18,530 --> 01:46:17,040
same with ghost hunting we were talking

2726
01:46:22,010 --> 01:46:18,540
about ghost hunting a few weeks back

2727
01:46:23,930 --> 01:46:22,020
where like it uh so like in the

2728
01:46:25,250 --> 01:46:23,940
beginning in like the contactes and

2729
01:46:26,870 --> 01:46:25,260
stuff these aliens were coming from our

2730
01:46:29,510 --> 01:46:26,880
solar system and they they've kind of

2731
01:46:31,850 --> 01:46:29,520
moved out as our ex our understanding

2732
01:46:34,189 --> 01:46:31,860
has expanded so I wonder if that's just

2733
01:46:35,990 --> 01:46:34,199
kind of the easy way out is that they're

2734
01:46:37,970 --> 01:46:36,000
the explanations are moving along with

2735
01:46:40,250 --> 01:46:37,980
our understanding into those darker

2736
01:46:41,870 --> 01:46:40,260
Corners it's the only way to explain the

2737
01:46:45,169 --> 01:46:41,880
inexplicable is to appeal to the

2738
01:46:46,910 --> 01:46:45,179
inexplicable yeah right that is that we

2739
01:46:51,590 --> 01:46:46,920
that we that we explain the mysterious

2740
01:46:54,470 --> 01:46:53,090
I mean that that itself is just

2741
01:46:57,350 --> 01:46:54,480
psychologically interesting isn't it

2742
01:46:59,030 --> 01:46:57,360
yeah virtually interesting

2743
01:47:01,550 --> 01:46:59,040
um because this is the other thing is

2744
01:47:04,550 --> 01:47:01,560
that the moment that modernity shows up

2745
01:47:05,930 --> 01:47:04,560
and the supernatural dissolves right and

2746
01:47:08,090 --> 01:47:05,940
everything collapses into this purely

2747
01:47:09,169 --> 01:47:08,100
imminent order right and of course

2748
01:47:11,090 --> 01:47:09,179
that's that's the name of that first

2749
01:47:14,510 --> 01:47:11,100
paper I wrote with Dr Palmer presumed

2750
01:47:17,149 --> 01:47:14,520
imminent okay suddenly there's a loss of

2751
01:47:19,729 --> 01:47:17,159
mystery there's a loss of Mystery

2752
01:47:21,950 --> 01:47:19,739
right remember that the the that for for

2753
01:47:23,510 --> 01:47:21,960
various reasons mind you that in the

2754
01:47:24,910 --> 01:47:23,520
enlightenment the thing was to explain

2755
01:47:28,330 --> 01:47:24,920
away

2756
01:47:31,550 --> 01:47:28,340
Miracles ghosts uh all the other

2757
01:47:32,570 --> 01:47:31,560
superstitions right and to reduce it to

2758
01:47:34,609 --> 01:47:32,580
science or to find a scientific

2759
01:47:37,370 --> 01:47:34,619
explanation for it and I think there's a

2760
01:47:39,050 --> 01:47:37,380
good reason that we resist that

2761
01:47:41,209 --> 01:47:39,060
there's a very good reason we resist

2762
01:47:42,169 --> 01:47:41,219
that because there's a kind of hubris to

2763
01:47:43,990 --> 01:47:42,179
reason

2764
01:47:46,270 --> 01:47:44,000
this kind of hubris

2765
01:47:49,010 --> 01:47:46,280
to the

2766
01:47:51,290 --> 01:47:49,020
science the material science is to think

2767
01:47:54,050 --> 01:47:51,300
that they can reduce everything to to

2768
01:47:55,669 --> 01:47:54,060
matter to a physicalist explanation and

2769
01:47:57,290 --> 01:47:55,679
that we can finally get a handle on

2770
01:47:59,209 --> 01:47:57,300
everything now I don't I think a lot of

2771
01:48:01,129 --> 01:47:59,219
scientists are kind of last people to

2772
01:48:03,229 --> 01:48:01,139
admit that that's kind of the function

2773
01:48:04,070 --> 01:48:03,239
that science plays in our culture in

2774
01:48:06,410 --> 01:48:04,080
general

2775
01:48:07,850 --> 01:48:06,420
I think that is going to explain things

2776
01:48:09,649 --> 01:48:07,860
and then of course what's interesting

2777
01:48:11,930 --> 01:48:09,659
with that is the way that people resist

2778
01:48:14,090 --> 01:48:11,940
that you know for example with uh

2779
01:48:14,810 --> 01:48:14,100
vaccine hesitancy

2780
01:48:17,750 --> 01:48:14,820
um

2781
01:48:19,250 --> 01:48:17,760
and I speak as someone with a dampened

2782
01:48:23,689 --> 01:48:19,260
immune system which had five

2783
01:48:29,570 --> 01:48:28,250
um so again it's all again the same sort

2784
01:48:32,390 --> 01:48:29,580
of mechanism so you can sort of move out

2785
01:48:33,709 --> 01:48:32,400
into other fields another phenomena this

2786
01:48:35,270 --> 01:48:33,719
social phenomenon so you know isn't that

2787
01:48:37,129 --> 01:48:35,280
kind of the same thing

2788
01:48:39,590 --> 01:48:37,139
uh the way the way that reason and

2789
01:48:42,109 --> 01:48:39,600
unreason you know work together play

2790
01:48:44,510 --> 01:48:42,119
with each other gain and lose ground

2791
01:48:45,770 --> 01:48:44,520
relative to each other

2792
01:48:47,270 --> 01:48:45,780
um

2793
01:48:53,990 --> 01:48:47,280
but that's even yeah that's that's

2794
01:49:01,790 --> 01:48:57,770
um yeah holy smokes

2795
01:49:07,609 --> 01:49:04,790
what what has someone someone asked

2796
01:49:11,810 --> 01:49:07,619
something on the side uh oh yeah oh yeah

2797
01:49:15,050 --> 01:49:11,820
yeah where did you find this guy

2798
01:49:17,870 --> 01:49:15,060
um you know one of the questions we got

2799
01:49:19,970 --> 01:49:17,880
um I I may not be able to find it but it

2800
01:49:21,950 --> 01:49:19,980
was asking about how the new school may

2801
01:49:23,629 --> 01:49:21,960
have influenced your approach to this

2802
01:49:25,250 --> 01:49:23,639
subject

2803
01:49:28,189 --> 01:49:25,260
the new school

2804
01:49:32,330 --> 01:49:30,290
um the explicit question is is Brian

2805
01:49:33,830 --> 01:49:32,340
influenced by the new school and how has

2806
01:49:36,649 --> 01:49:33,840
that informed her influenced his

2807
01:49:38,689 --> 01:49:36,659
psychosocial approach to ufology I'm not

2808
01:49:40,729 --> 01:49:38,699
too sure what is being referred to by

2809
01:49:43,010 --> 01:49:40,739
the new school there there's there's

2810
01:49:44,270 --> 01:49:43,020
there's a a place in New York called The

2811
01:49:46,570 --> 01:49:44,280
New School

2812
01:49:49,250 --> 01:49:46,580
the mock system new school

2813
01:49:52,010 --> 01:49:49,260
Frankfurt School oh oh Frankfurt School

2814
01:49:54,890 --> 01:49:52,020
oh well do I really need to pull down

2815
01:49:57,470 --> 01:49:54,900
all the adorno from my bookshelf

2816
01:49:59,629 --> 01:49:57,480
um oh yeah look sure sure no yes okay

2817
01:50:01,850 --> 01:49:59,639
has that yes that I'm very influenced by

2818
01:50:04,729 --> 01:50:01,860
that absolutely I've already cited

2819
01:50:06,770 --> 01:50:04,739
habermas right his book in the 1970s

2820
01:50:08,209 --> 01:50:06,780
talks about ideology or the technology

2821
01:50:09,590 --> 01:50:08,219
as ideology that's what called Advanced

2822
01:50:11,629 --> 01:50:09,600
societies

2823
01:50:15,649 --> 01:50:11,639
um my approach to culture as ideology

2824
01:50:17,270 --> 01:50:15,659
critique uh Finds Its example and model

2825
01:50:21,290 --> 01:50:17,280
in adorno

2826
01:50:24,290 --> 01:50:21,300
absolutely although adorno is like

2827
01:50:28,250 --> 01:50:24,300
way above me you know

2828
01:50:30,290 --> 01:50:28,260
really terrifying mind

2829
01:50:32,270 --> 01:50:30,300
um absolutely yeah very much very much

2830
01:50:34,790 --> 01:50:32,280
influenced by that in my in my own way

2831
01:50:37,490 --> 01:50:34,800
so I mean I I make of it what I can as

2832
01:50:40,070 --> 01:50:37,500
best I can and run with it I'm not

2833
01:50:42,169 --> 01:50:40,080
satisfied with it

2834
01:50:45,229 --> 01:50:42,179
um because the notion of ideology is a

2835
01:50:46,790 --> 01:50:45,239
very slippery concept to bring the bear

2836
01:50:49,070 --> 01:50:46,800
I've got to kind of Rough and Ready

2837
01:50:51,709 --> 01:50:49,080
version of it

2838
01:50:53,390 --> 01:50:51,719
um but I mean you know it's I'm waiting

2839
01:50:55,370 --> 01:50:53,400
for the day that Zizek says something

2840
01:50:56,629 --> 01:50:55,380
about UFOs I'm sure he does something

2841
01:50:58,430 --> 01:50:56,639
almost interesting

2842
01:51:00,709 --> 01:50:58,440
but I think I may have beaten him to it

2843
01:51:03,050 --> 01:51:00,719
so on and so forth

2844
01:51:05,810 --> 01:51:03,060
I can't believe he hasn't commented on

2845
01:51:07,850 --> 01:51:05,820
UFOs it seems like a crazy Jack sort of

2846
01:51:10,310 --> 01:51:07,860
thing to talk about well you know it's

2847
01:51:11,750 --> 01:51:10,320
kind of out of his Wheelhouse in a way

2848
01:51:12,950 --> 01:51:11,760
you know in as much as like I think in

2849
01:51:14,510 --> 01:51:12,960
Eastern Europe

2850
01:51:17,209 --> 01:51:14,520
it's not through the thing and I think

2851
01:51:19,490 --> 01:51:17,219
his generation is not really the thing

2852
01:51:21,050 --> 01:51:19,500
um it's a popular culture but his

2853
01:51:24,530 --> 01:51:21,060
popular culture has got more to do with

2854
01:51:30,669 --> 01:51:24,540
American popular culture too very well

2855
01:51:35,270 --> 01:51:33,410
in its presence in modernity it seems

2856
01:51:36,830 --> 01:51:35,280
that way um I mean it's certainly where

2857
01:51:38,149 --> 01:51:36,840
the overwhelming majority of sightings

2858
01:51:39,770 --> 01:51:38,159
are reported

2859
01:51:41,689 --> 01:51:39,780
um it seems to be where there's a

2860
01:51:43,010 --> 01:51:41,699
continuous stream of discourse and these

2861
01:51:45,229 --> 01:51:43,020
like

2862
01:51:47,450 --> 01:51:45,239
um government and Military adjacent

2863
01:51:49,510 --> 01:51:47,460
spaces it also seems there also seems to

2864
01:51:52,790 --> 01:51:49,520
be a much strong

2865
01:51:56,270 --> 01:51:52,800
stronger and more well-developed just

2866
01:51:58,189 --> 01:51:56,280
general conspiracy culture in America I

2867
01:52:00,290 --> 01:51:58,199
think I think that latter point I that

2868
01:52:01,910 --> 01:52:00,300
that I would tend to agree with

2869
01:52:04,970 --> 01:52:01,920
um I think there's been a lot of

2870
01:52:09,169 --> 01:52:04,980
interest in in UFOs in Europe for

2871
01:52:11,930 --> 01:52:09,179
example for Brazil yes and it's sort of

2872
01:52:13,790 --> 01:52:11,940
Latin America yes Australia New Zealand

2873
01:52:17,149 --> 01:52:13,800
I'm sure there's a lot going on in

2874
01:52:22,250 --> 01:52:17,159
Africa there are religious movements in

2875
01:52:23,570 --> 01:52:22,260
in China in Southeast Asia in Japan

2876
01:52:25,070 --> 01:52:23,580
um you I think you can make a pretty

2877
01:52:27,709 --> 01:52:25,080
strong case there's a quote-unquote

2878
01:52:30,890 --> 01:52:27,719
global phenomenon in that regard

2879
01:52:31,550 --> 01:52:30,900
and that that itself is interesting

2880
01:52:34,550 --> 01:52:31,560
um

2881
01:52:36,109 --> 01:52:34,560
well I think that's much yeah go on

2882
01:52:37,490 --> 01:52:36,119
first I was just gonna say like uh

2883
01:52:38,870 --> 01:52:37,500
because of uh like uh we're talking

2884
01:52:40,490 --> 01:52:38,880
about Eastern Europe and stuff this is

2885
01:52:42,950 --> 01:52:40,500
something of something across a fair bit

2886
01:52:44,270 --> 01:52:42,960
in my uh studies of the subject I've

2887
01:52:46,250 --> 01:52:44,280
leaned in heavily to the Harley

2888
01:52:48,169 --> 01:52:46,260
religious Massimo theodorani's early

2889
01:52:51,530 --> 01:52:48,179
strands kind of stuff trying to observe

2890
01:52:53,149 --> 01:52:51,540
it uh empirically in uh the Eastern

2891
01:52:54,290 --> 01:52:53,159
Europe and Russia right there I mean as

2892
01:52:56,090 --> 01:52:54,300
you obviously know but just for

2893
01:52:58,729 --> 01:52:56,100
everybody the Soviets they were atheists

2894
01:53:01,370 --> 01:52:58,739
uh materialists very hardcore uh physics

2895
01:53:04,070 --> 01:53:01,380
uh you know focus and um my

2896
01:53:05,930 --> 01:53:04,080
understanding is that UFO phenomena in

2897
01:53:07,669 --> 01:53:05,940
the Soviet Union were interpreted as

2898
01:53:10,010 --> 01:53:07,679
ball lightning phenomena uh you know

2899
01:53:12,649 --> 01:53:10,020
I've seen many many yes many many papers

2900
01:53:14,209 --> 01:53:12,659
uh about the electrostatics interpreting

2901
01:53:16,790 --> 01:53:14,219
the phenomena talking about them

2902
01:53:19,669 --> 01:53:16,800
orbiting aircraft uh following aircraft

2903
01:53:21,590 --> 01:53:19,679
through electrostop mechanisms so and in

2904
01:53:24,229 --> 01:53:21,600
their databases at universities in

2905
01:53:25,430 --> 01:53:24,239
Russia with tens of thousands of ball

2906
01:53:27,649 --> 01:53:25,440
lightning

2907
01:53:30,350 --> 01:53:27,659
through those reports but the

2908
01:53:31,850 --> 01:53:30,360
qualitative descriptions are essentially

2909
01:53:34,430 --> 01:53:31,860
exactly what we would see in the mufon

2910
01:53:36,709 --> 01:53:34,440
database so do you think that that may

2911
01:53:37,970 --> 01:53:36,719
be yeah maybe is that a philosophical

2912
01:53:39,590 --> 01:53:37,980
interpretive thing because you mentioned

2913
01:53:41,030 --> 01:53:39,600
the Mormonism and you know we were

2914
01:53:42,950 --> 01:53:41,040
saying like the philosophy of Mormonism

2915
01:53:44,390 --> 01:53:42,960
includes like other planets like so

2916
01:53:46,070 --> 01:53:44,400
maybe do you think that the Russia and

2917
01:53:48,470 --> 01:53:46,080
the Soviet philosophy based in

2918
01:53:50,209 --> 01:53:48,480
materialist Marxism maybe influence that

2919
01:53:51,590 --> 01:53:50,219
interpretive uh sort of you know

2920
01:53:54,350 --> 01:53:51,600
decision as well

2921
01:53:56,930 --> 01:53:54,360
oh boy The History of Science in in the

2922
01:53:58,970 --> 01:53:56,940
Soviet Union is is I've got a big book

2923
01:54:03,709 --> 01:53:58,980
on the bookshelf here all about that is

2924
01:54:05,750 --> 01:54:03,719
wild wild science yeah holy smokes

2925
01:54:09,410 --> 01:54:05,760
um honestly

2926
01:54:11,810 --> 01:54:09,420
yes yeah on the one hand you know

2927
01:54:14,229 --> 01:54:11,820
I'm sure look there's doubtless like

2928
01:54:17,149 --> 01:54:14,239
really serious hardcore physicalist

2929
01:54:18,470 --> 01:54:17,159
scientists in this what was the Soviet

2930
01:54:20,149 --> 01:54:18,480
Union in Russia that studied the problem

2931
01:54:22,570 --> 01:54:20,159
yes

2932
01:54:27,970 --> 01:54:22,580
on the other hand okay

2933
01:54:31,669 --> 01:54:27,980
uh in as Dugan is the first to point out

2934
01:54:34,490 --> 01:54:31,679
uh Russia never went through modernity

2935
01:54:37,189 --> 01:54:34,500
there's there's a strong religious

2936
01:54:39,169 --> 01:54:37,199
spiritual mystical Dimension to Russian

2937
01:54:42,970 --> 01:54:39,179
culture

2938
01:54:45,229 --> 01:54:42,980
um even among the Russians

2939
01:54:48,050 --> 01:54:45,239
scientistic scientific Community there

2940
01:54:49,669 --> 01:54:48,060
was of course famously cosmism

2941
01:54:52,490 --> 01:54:49,679
um among the trotskyists who have

2942
01:54:57,470 --> 01:54:55,070
um which aren't okay which didn't

2943
01:55:01,010 --> 01:54:57,480
understand UFOs in a spiritual sense

2944
01:55:05,750 --> 01:55:03,649
but there is there is this aspect to it

2945
01:55:07,090 --> 01:55:05,760
and there's a there's a great deal of

2946
01:55:10,129 --> 01:55:07,100
kind of

2947
01:55:11,209 --> 01:55:10,139
spiritualism religiosity in Russian

2948
01:55:13,910 --> 01:55:11,219
culture

2949
01:55:16,910 --> 01:55:13,920
and I'd be very interested to sort of

2950
01:55:19,370 --> 01:55:16,920
see what kind of inroads various uh New

2951
01:55:20,810 --> 01:55:19,380
Age movements with the flying sauces

2952
01:55:23,209 --> 01:55:20,820
that orbit the Flying Saucer or are

2953
01:55:25,910 --> 01:55:23,219
orbited by the Flying Saucer have made

2954
01:55:27,410 --> 01:55:25,920
into uh Russian and and like the what

2955
01:55:31,070 --> 01:55:27,420
was that that

2956
01:55:32,810 --> 01:55:31,080
Eurasian uh culture in general

2957
01:55:35,209 --> 01:55:32,820
that would be very interesting and I bet

2958
01:55:38,570 --> 01:55:35,219
there's more defined note there than

2959
01:55:39,410 --> 01:55:38,580
than we might think

2960
01:55:47,570 --> 01:55:39,420
um

2961
01:55:49,970 --> 01:55:47,580
important here is that that each

2962
01:55:53,450 --> 01:55:49,980
continent if you will gives an

2963
01:55:54,649 --> 01:55:53,460
inflection to the phenomenon so we you

2964
01:55:56,870 --> 01:55:54,659
know very famously in Latin America

2965
01:55:58,669 --> 01:55:56,880
they're more hairy dwarves

2966
01:56:01,310 --> 01:55:58,679
right than there are little gray men

2967
01:56:03,890 --> 01:56:01,320
right the Grays are more prevalent in in

2968
01:56:05,930 --> 01:56:03,900
uh parts of Europe and uh

2969
01:56:08,870 --> 01:56:05,940
in the United States in Africa I don't

2970
01:56:10,250 --> 01:56:08,880
know what they what they encounter

2971
01:56:12,790 --> 01:56:10,260
um in Japan there's a wonderful story

2972
01:56:15,470 --> 01:56:12,800
about this kind of like giant starfish

2973
01:56:16,430 --> 01:56:15,480
that's really cool

2974
01:56:18,830 --> 01:56:16,440
um

2975
01:56:21,350 --> 01:56:18,840
and so again the question is what's

2976
01:56:23,570 --> 01:56:21,360
what's wonderful again is how

2977
01:56:27,830 --> 01:56:23,580
culturally relative

2978
01:56:29,270 --> 01:56:27,840
right uh the the appearance is

2979
01:56:31,189 --> 01:56:29,280
um and what that might speak to about

2980
01:56:33,050 --> 01:56:31,199
the phenomenon and many people have run

2981
01:56:34,729 --> 01:56:33,060
with this idea

2982
01:56:37,189 --> 01:56:34,739
um arguing against it being something

2983
01:56:38,750 --> 01:56:37,199
like real like people visiting from Mars

2984
01:56:40,070 --> 01:56:38,760
or is that particularly or the Pleiades

2985
01:56:41,629 --> 01:56:40,080
or so on

2986
01:56:44,149 --> 01:56:41,639
um rather it must be something more more

2987
01:56:46,129 --> 01:56:44,159
localized or something much more given

2988
01:56:47,689 --> 01:56:46,139
to metamorphosis relative to The

2989
01:56:50,030 --> 01:56:47,699
Observer

2990
01:56:52,189 --> 01:56:50,040
right that that itself is interesting

2991
01:56:54,709 --> 01:56:52,199
but of course that lends itself to a

2992
01:56:56,270 --> 01:56:54,719
psychosocial explanation well why why do

2993
01:56:57,530 --> 01:56:56,280
people in in South America see this well

2994
01:56:58,910 --> 01:56:57,540
because they're in South America et

2995
01:57:00,350 --> 01:56:58,920
cetera et cetera

2996
01:57:02,750 --> 01:57:00,360
so

2997
01:57:04,310 --> 01:57:02,760
but but it's interesting that you that

2998
01:57:07,609 --> 01:57:04,320
you that there are all these these

2999
01:57:10,189 --> 01:57:07,619
databases I mean he's written a book

3000
01:57:12,109 --> 01:57:10,199
about his uh I think what's called uh

3001
01:57:15,669 --> 01:57:12,119
about visiting the Soviet Union there's

3002
01:57:20,570 --> 01:57:17,870
Landing incident where there were again

3003
01:57:22,370 --> 01:57:20,580
Giants this is it in other parts of the

3004
01:57:24,229 --> 01:57:22,380
world they're not small they're really

3005
01:57:26,149 --> 01:57:24,239
tall

3006
01:57:27,709 --> 01:57:26,159
um this is very very famous moment and

3007
01:57:31,970 --> 01:57:27,719
this has been investigated

3008
01:57:33,830 --> 01:57:31,980
Soviet scientists so what's going on

3009
01:57:35,570 --> 01:57:33,840
there I don't know

3010
01:57:37,250 --> 01:57:35,580
very interesting that's not the only

3011
01:57:39,290 --> 01:57:37,260
Soviet case I'm semi-familiar with as

3012
01:57:41,870 --> 01:57:39,300
with the uh they were automatized very

3013
01:57:44,089 --> 01:57:41,880
famous robots yeah well there were these

3014
01:57:46,430 --> 01:57:44,099
big tall giant dudes on the head and

3015
01:57:47,149 --> 01:57:46,440
they had these little robots apparently

3016
01:57:49,370 --> 01:57:47,159
um

3017
01:57:51,530 --> 01:57:49,380
but you know it's all but then

3018
01:57:55,089 --> 01:57:51,540
apparently the investigators use dowsing

3019
01:57:58,189 --> 01:57:55,099
to find out to find the Ley lines

3020
01:58:00,709 --> 01:57:58,199
it was really really interesting really

3021
01:58:02,330 --> 01:58:00,719
interesting but yeah you gotta use what

3022
01:58:05,030 --> 01:58:02,340
you can use

3023
01:58:06,950 --> 01:58:05,040
Nick did you have a final question for

3024
01:58:10,850 --> 01:58:06,960
Brian

3025
01:58:13,850 --> 01:58:12,109
oh

3026
01:58:15,530 --> 01:58:13,860
so yeah so so we're approaching the top

3027
01:58:17,930 --> 01:58:15,540
of the hour here

3028
01:58:19,490 --> 01:58:17,940
um Brian thank you so so much for the

3029
01:58:22,609 --> 01:58:19,500
time tonight This was oh thank you

3030
01:58:23,510 --> 01:58:22,619
absolutely um but before we close things

3031
01:58:26,270 --> 01:58:23,520
out

3032
01:58:29,330 --> 01:58:26,280
um where can we find you

3033
01:58:31,310 --> 01:58:29,340
uh skunkworksblog.com

3034
01:58:34,370 --> 01:58:31,320
wonderful that that's that's that's the

3035
01:58:36,890 --> 01:58:34,380
the eupological uh site

3036
01:58:38,229 --> 01:58:36,900
um and then uh if you're interested in

3037
01:58:41,689 --> 01:58:38,239
the more literary work it's

3038
01:58:46,189 --> 01:58:41,699
briantennis.com or poeta doctors

3039
01:58:49,250 --> 01:58:47,450
um and these are the the two main places

3040
01:58:51,709 --> 01:58:49,260
where I put up what I put up when I put

3041
01:58:55,010 --> 01:58:53,689
there we go thank you for the time thank

3042
01:58:58,189 --> 01:58:55,020
you for the information it's been it's

3043
01:59:02,089 --> 01:58:58,199
been it's been a lot of fun I hope uh

3044
01:59:04,189 --> 01:59:02,099
I hope good yes thank you this was a

3045
01:59:05,930 --> 01:59:04,199
pleasure I look forward to continuing

3046
01:59:07,129 --> 01:59:05,940
this the conversation in the future time

3047
01:59:09,729 --> 01:59:07,139
when when

3048
01:59:23,570 --> 01:59:09,739
they land on the White House lawn

3049
01:59:27,350 --> 01:59:25,010
it's good

3050
01:59:29,089 --> 01:59:27,360
have a nice night

3051
01:59:30,950 --> 01:59:29,099
all right gentlemen thank you so much

3052
01:59:32,330 --> 01:59:30,960
again for joining the invisible night

3053
01:59:33,950 --> 01:59:32,340
school

3054
01:59:36,410 --> 01:59:33,960
um does anyone have any parting thoughts

3055
01:59:38,570 --> 01:59:36,420
before we close out the Stream

3056
01:59:41,030 --> 01:59:38,580
it's a great combo it's the exact kind

3057
01:59:44,330 --> 01:59:41,040
of conversation I am looking to have

3058
01:59:47,689 --> 01:59:44,340
yeah definitely one of my favorite

3059
01:59:49,669 --> 01:59:47,699
episodes that we've done yeah 100 this

3060
01:59:52,430 --> 01:59:49,679
was awesome um Lewis thank you so much

3061
01:59:54,050 --> 01:59:52,440
for uh for making the introduction

3062
01:59:57,350 --> 01:59:54,060
um all right so gentlemen next week we

3063
01:59:59,689 --> 01:59:57,360
will be joined by Erica Lukes on uh I

3064
02:00:01,970 --> 01:59:59,699
think it's yeah she'll be joining us um

3065
02:00:04,370 --> 02:00:01,980
we'll be resuming uh I think our 9 p.m

3066
02:00:06,410 --> 02:00:04,380
eastern time slot uh if anything changes

3067
02:00:08,270 --> 02:00:06,420
of course I'll put that out on Twitter

3068
02:00:10,790 --> 02:00:08,280
um in the meantime folks tuning in

3069
02:00:12,830 --> 02:00:10,800
whether live or on recording please feel

3070
02:00:14,689 --> 02:00:12,840
free to like share subscribe join us on

3071
02:00:16,910 --> 02:00:14,699
Discord find us on Twitter

3072
02:00:19,490 --> 02:00:16,920
um we'd love to hear from you guys and

3073
02:00:20,810 --> 02:00:19,500
um stay safe stay Smart Stay sharp see

3074
02:00:33,070 --> 02:00:20,820
you guys next week

3075
02:00:33,080 --> 02:00:56,689
[Music]

3076
02:01:03,780 --> 02:00:58,300
foreign

3077
02:01:05,340 --> 02:01:03,790
[Music]

3078
02:01:36,589 --> 02:01:05,350
[Applause]

3079
02:02:04,430 --> 02:01:39,410
foreign